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CowtownTexas
I am curious if others here are seeing big issues at country and golf clubs around your part of the world? Specifically, I'm thinking more in lines of traditional, old line country clubs where the members own the club, though I guess corporately owned clubs might be relevant as well.

The most popular solution seems to be lowering the initiation fee. I have read that many traditional clubs around the country have taken similar courses of action (like Oakland Hills). I would love to know the names of others if any of you know them and how much they have dropped their fee.

Any information would be appreciated.
bobbyp
My local club (and several others nearby) have similar struggles. Initiation fee elimination was attempted along with a decrease in the monthly dues. Increased the membership for 1 year but the original members who paid $3-4k to join ended up resigning! Then, the members who did not pay a fee started dropping out when the monthly dues needed to be increased. I think you can play with the numbers a lot of ways but it is a never ending cycle. My club ended up being bought out and is now a "golf and tennis club" (vs country club) open to public play - still with a small membership. One other local country club just implemented $300/month unlimited golf with 2 year committment and no initiation. Jury is still out on them. The only clubs still carrying on nicely have a very strong history and a very upscale (rich) membership. There are actually wait lists at these clubs so it's not the economic downturn causing issue everywhere. Names withheld to protect the innocent but one of the clubs mentioned having success resides in the "sweetest town on earth".
jcvandamme
QUOTE (bobbyp @ Oct 16 2009, 01:33 PM) *
My local club (and several others nearby) have similar struggles. Initiation fee elimination was attempted along with a decrease in the monthly dues. Increased the membership for 1 year but the original members who paid $3-4k to join ended up resigning! Then, the members who did not pay a fee started dropping out when the monthly dues needed to be increased. I think you can play with the numbers a lot of ways but it is a never ending cycle. My club ended up being bought out and is now a "golf and tennis club" (vs country club) open to public play - still with a small membership. One other local country club just implemented $300/month unlimited golf with 2 year committment and no initiation. Jury is still out on them. The only clubs still carrying on nicely have a very strong history and a very upscale (rich) membership. There are actually wait lists at these clubs so it's not the economic downturn causing issue everywhere. Names withheld to protect the innocent but one of the clubs mentioned having success resides in the "sweetest town on earth".


A bit OT but what part of central PA are you from Bobby? I live about 20 miles south of Williamsport and I know a few of the semi-private courses around here are hurting for members too.


highergr0und
Have you looked into doing a reasonable junior membership for people under 30 (or some arbitrary age)? I'm joining a club that has that. It's low initiation fees with reasonable (130) monthly fees. You don't get any equity or a right to vote on anything, but they get money and you get to play golf or tennis. It also can help establish a younger base to keep it going once they get a bit older. There are two courses and full access range, pools, tennis, etc is included. The food minimum is very low as well, I think $100 a quarter.
bobbyp
"A bit OT but what part of central PA are you from Bobby? I live about 20 miles south of Williamsport and I know a few of the semi-private courses around here are hurting for members too."

Harrisburg, my friend. Shoot me a PM if you ever want to hook up in between.
CowtownTexas
QUOTE (highergr0und @ Oct 16 2009, 12:53 PM) *
Have you looked into doing a reasonable junior membership for people under 30 (or some arbitrary age)? I'm joining a club that has that. It's low initiation fees with reasonable (130) monthly fees. You don't get any equity or a right to vote on anything, but they get money and you get to play golf or tennis. It also can help establish a younger base to keep it going once they get a bit older. There are two courses and full access range, pools, tennis, etc is included. The food minimum is very low as well, I think $100 a quarter.



We did that with great success earlier this year. However, while that was a start, we need older members as well (35-55).

highergr0und
What's the thought on the root cause of the troubles? Do you think there are a lot of folks out there who are turned away just by the initiation fee or is it the monthly dues, or maybe they're scared that they will lose that whole initiation if something happens and they can't pay their dues? Have you looked into working the numbers around so a member can get in at a low fee and spread the initiation out over time (higher monthly dues)? I know a lot of clubs are just lowering the fee to try to get people in, but it seems like it's still not that successful since payoff is a long way off even with a lower fee.
razorbird
Part of the challenge is lowering the perceived or real value of the membership. Once you roll back the prices, it's tough to move back in the other direction. What will that do to the club long term...Is it sustainable, or are you putting off the inevitable? I don't think there's a single answer, I think you need to address the whole picture.

-Trim the fat, reduce costs wherever you can, but make sure to get the existing membership on board.
-Offer generous bonuses to members and employees that recruit/refer new members.
-Reward employees that inovate and cut costs, drive profits.
-Reward members that spend the most at the club's facility somehow.
-Do a utilities audit. Buildings AND Course.
-Long Range plan your cuts, don't sabotage yourself down the road.
-Is opening to the public a few days a month an option in place of booked outings?
-Get the club involved in the surrounding community events - you may be surprised who wants to hang out with you!
-Recruit talented staff. This is a GREAT time to find TALENT FOR LESS! Contract them with lower salaries and bigger performance bonuses.
-Have a staff meeting and ask for support. Everybody needs to do more with less today, so get on the same page.
-Structure membership initiations/dues over a longer initial committment?
-Organize and sell tournaments to the public using your existing staff, members, and resources - you'll get revenue for the tourney, exposure to prospects, and a chance at publicity if you work the local media. Get creative!
-Anytime you have a chance to showcase the club, MAKE SURE EVERYBODY IS ALREADY DOING IT THE BEST THEY CAN!!! If there's a passion, it will be felt when prospects are on the property, Be "that place" that people can't get out of their head.
-Court the members on the waiting list to resign. Do your best to turn them around! They're not gone yet!

Could go on and on, but everything you do affects the members you have now and may recruit later. Don't let the situation dictate the mood.

Good Luck!




leftylarry
I don't belong to a private club, but from talking to people in the area (I live in Westchester County, NY) it seems that a lot of clubs have been allowing new members to play their first year for the price of annual dues, no inititation. Then, at the end of the year, if they want to stay, they have to pay initiation, but can spread it out over 3 years. And, of course, the initiation has dropped from what was probably at a high 3 or 4 years ago. But, to be honest, I really don't know if that approach is working well or not....I believe that the results are mixed from club to club.

I'm not sure there's a simple solution. Memberships used to be comprised of many guys who played 20 rounds/year, but never really cared what their "per-round" cost was. They just liked being part of the club for social reasons, convenience, etc. Now, guys are saying "wait....I spent $10k last year for 20 rounds....that's $500/round!!". So, a lot of those guys are dropping out and figure they can pay $125/round at upscale daily fee courses and spend less than $3k/year instead of $10k.

Maybe the private clubs need to open up to the public during weekdays when they're barely used. I know the members all hate that idea for all the obvious reasons, but there might not be another choice....besides shutting their doors and combining membership with another nearby club.
JLTD63
Hey Cowtown...is this Colonial that we're talking about??
tonyy
QUOTE (bobbyp @ Oct 16 2009, 01:33 PM) *
My local club (and several others nearby) have similar struggles. Initiation fee elimination was attempted along with a decrease in the monthly dues. Increased the membership for 1 year but the original members who paid $3-4k to join ended up resigning! Then, the members who did not pay a fee started dropping out when the monthly dues needed to be increased. I think you can play with the numbers a lot of ways but it is a never ending cycle. My club ended up being bought out and is now a "golf and tennis club" (vs country club) open to public play - still with a small membership. One other local country club just implemented $300/month unlimited golf with 2 year committment and no initiation. Jury is still out on them. The only clubs still carrying on nicely have a very strong history and a very upscale (rich) membership. There are actually wait lists at these clubs so it's not the economic downturn causing issue everywhere. Names withheld to protect the innocent but one of the clubs mentioned having success resides in the "sweetest town on earth".


Bobby, I'm from Lancaster PA, would you mind messaging me about the country club that has the $300/month unlimited golf? I've been looking for a club to join, just haven't found the right one yet. Thanks a bunch


1ftput
Cut course to 6+6=12 holes. Cheaper to manage, people can play the hole course in much shorter time.
cAsE sEnSiTiVe
QUOTE (leftylarry @ Oct 16 2009, 12:43 PM) *
Maybe the private clubs need to open up to the public during weekdays when they're barely used. I know the members all hate that idea for all the obvious reasons, but there might not be another choice....besides shutting their doors and combining membership with another nearby club.


A few clubs in my area (Sacramento), have already been doing that for a few months now. It's nice to be able to sample them on occasion, but I'm sure it doesn't sit well for dues paying members that paid full initiations to join. Business is business though.
MtlJeff
what i've seen around here is that the very posh clubs (ie Royal Montreal) are still doing very well, however the clubs that consist of more middle/ middle-upper class members are struggling tremendously. Every offseason some club makes a mad dash for members and tries to pry them away from somewhere else with crazy group rates, no initiation etc...Lot of clubs are struggling

i don't know if there's a solution other than waiting for the economy to rebound. Every one in all walks of business is taking a hit
2659edward
QUOTE (razorbird @ Oct 16 2009, 03:38 PM) *
Part of the challenge is lowering the perceived or real value of the membership. Once you roll back the prices, it's tough to move back in the other direction. What will that do to the club long term...Is it sustainable, or are you putting off the inevitable? I don't think there's a single answer, I think you need to address the whole picture.

-Trim the fat, reduce costs wherever you can, but make sure to get the existing membership on board.
-Offer generous bonuses to members and employees that recruit/refer new members.
-Reward employees that inovate and cut costs, drive profits.
-Reward members that spend the most at the club's facility somehow.
-Do a utilities audit. Buildings AND Course.
-Long Range plan your cuts, don't sabotage yourself down the road.
-Is opening to the public a few days a month an option in place of booked outings?
-Get the club involved in the surrounding community events - you may be surprised who wants to hang out with you!
-Recruit talented staff. This is a GREAT time to find TALENT FOR LESS! Contract them with lower salaries and bigger performance bonuses.
-Have a staff meeting and ask for support. Everybody needs to do more with less today, so get on the same page.
-Structure membership initiations/dues over a longer initial committment?
-Organize and sell tournaments to the public using your existing staff, members, and resources - you'll get revenue for the tourney, exposure to prospects, and a chance at publicity if you work the local media. Get creative!
-Anytime you have a chance to showcase the club, MAKE SURE EVERYBODY IS ALREADY DOING IT THE BEST THEY CAN!!! If there's a passion, it will be felt when prospects are on the property, Be "that place" that people can't get out of their head.
-Court the members on the waiting list to resign. Do your best to turn them around! They're not gone yet!

Could go on and on, but everything you do affects the members you have now and may recruit later. Don't let the situation dictate the mood.

Good Luck!

Very nice post. Very well thought out. I think you are exactly right in trying to help the bottom line but, not hurt preceived value of the membership. The solution is obviously different in each case but, going in think long term instead if knee jerk.
cmdrstp
Topless cart girls. Simple.

Around where I live clubs tend to be to be too expensive for the "average Joe" to make such a commitment. How about membership for certain days. Those days would be your "private" course. May not appeal to most who can afford a club but, might entice those would love to be a part of a club but can't commit to a full membership.

Would love to be a part of a club team vs another.
bazinky
The one thing that I have not seen ANY clubs do, is try raising the age limit on junior members. I think this would be an effective strategy that wouldn't lower the real or perceived value to the existing members. For example, I didn't move to the city I currently live in until my 30's (long period of schooling), and hadn't decided to live here permanently until after I was too old for most junior memberships. The wife and I are currently saving for a higher-end club (I don't like doing installments, and we need a few house renovations first), otherwise there are several clubs that would have my revenue stream already ...
Borthwick
My club appears to be surviving, but that's about the extent of it. The initiation fee was dropped several months ago and the board has chosen to continue that policy thru the end of this year. We've picked up about 50 new members since this policy was instituted.

We have a fee schedule that fits about anyone. If you are only interested in golf, there is a golf-only rate. Likewise for tennis, swimming, and social. There are also rates that combine any two of the aforementioned activities. If you are the only member of your family that will use the facilities, you can get a single membership. A single golf membership is only about $200/mo (+ cap imp fee), which in my mind is extremely reasonable. There are public courses in this area that run just south of $100/round/person.

I love my club and I really want it to come out the other end of this tunnel better for the experience.
smith5606
I've been interested in the impact of the economy on the golf industry for several months. It's intuitively obvious that because country club and/or golf club memberships are essentially a luxury good, demand should be very sensitive to changes in the economy.

1. There are substitute goods available - high quality public access courses that are increasingly mimicing the facilities and amenities of private courses.

2. Maintenance costs are increasing and many clubs are not able to pass them along to a shrinking membership. Course condition suffers.

3. Many memberships are paid through companies as perky for high-earners. Shrinking profits make these memberships an easy target for cost cutting.

4. Women and minority inroads into the corporate boardroom have eroded the "good old boy" atmosphere that fostered private clubs.

5. Many old courses don't reflect the 'bomb and gouge' influenced design preferences of 'modern' golfers.

6. A general decline in golf among younger people.

7. Many new courses are associated with real estate development. Developers in some cases subsidized these courses so that they could be used as attractions for the sale of property. With the collapse of the real estate market, these subsidies have eroded.

The whys are interesting but beg the question, what permanent changes will this "great recession" bring to golf as we knew it? In short, is the private club an anachronism that has outlived its usefulness? Is there a better model for serious golfers?
Golferpimp1
My wife and I finally decided to join a club here in town, there were a few benefits to joining in the middle of the recession, which is why we joined now, and not in 3-4 years when we would be making quite a bit more money (hopefully, haha).
-- They increase the junior age to 40
-- Monthly fees were slightly reduced not reduced too much, but enough for us.
-- The initiation was reduced, and we do not have to make up the difference once we are out of the "junior" category.
-- We were paying monthly for my golf, and our gym, and eating out etc, we re allocated expenses and arent really spending a whole lot more than we were before once we cancelled the gym, etc.
-- We would receive some of our initiation fee back if we have friends join within a year.

I think its ok to reduce fees, but I think you also want the club to keep them reasonable, so that it doesnt turn into a public type course, and members can still enjoy the country club expereience, playing quick rounds, not waiting much, always having open spots on the range etc. Theres a happy medium to trying to increase membership, but still keep the ambiance and positives of a private club. So far I think our club has done well.
Big Ben
Reduce the mileage barrier for no-resident membership, I went this route and happy to drive the added miles to eliminate monthy dues in the winter months. This will attract members who do not have relationships within the club hense fees for guests become much more common....BB
freddiec
My neighbor is a member at a very nice old CC. They like other places are trying to raise money. One thing they did this year is allow the members to have their own private outing. Once a month they are allowed to bring guests for a 1 day 18 hole outing. My neighbor brought 12 guests one day and raised over 1000 dollars that day for the club. This in addition to other regular outings IMO could be very helpful..
Buddyjay
My club did the same thing everyone else is mentioning. They dropped their membership rates, no initiation fees and temporarily opened up the course for public play. In fact, that is why I joined.
Rates for a single membership equates to approx. $300 / month (unlimited golf) and includes pool & tennis.
When I did the math, if I play 60 rounds/year, it comes out to $60.00 per round. Pretty cheap if you consider it's a Country Club with all the amenities.

Although my club did this, it has only picked up 8 new members since August 1.
Subsonic
A friend of mine manages a country club and attended a seminar on membership. She relayed a story to me that was quite interesting.

The instructor asked the class who owned their home. Everyone raised their hands. He next asked how many have lived in their homes for 5 years. About half dropped their hands. He next asked how many had lived in their homes for 10 or more years. Only 1 person still had their hand up.

I thought that this was an interesting perspective on the issue. People are now more transient than they used to be. In the 50s through the 70s, country clubs were at their peak. I also think that people tended to stay put for a longer period of time. Maybe people had a better since of community since they stayed in one area longer and were more likely to join.
jorgesgolf
QUOTE (Subsonic @ Oct 17 2009, 02:53 PM) *
A friend of mine manages a country club and attended a seminar on membership. She relayed a story to me that was quite interesting.

The instructor asked the class who owned their home. Everyne raised their hands. He next asked how many have lived in their homes for 5 years. About half dropped their hands. He next asked how many had lived in their homes for 10 or more years. Only 1 person still had their hand up.

I thought that this was an interesting perspective on the issue. People are now more transient than they used to be. In the 50s through the 70s, country clubs were at their peak. I also think that people tended to stay put for a longer period of time. Maybe people had a better since of community since they stayed in one area longer and were more likely to join.



Makes sense to me - there aren't that many jobs anymore where you can stay put for 15-20+ years, earn a pension and stay in the same place. If you change jobs and stay in the same career, you may need to move to another city/state to find something comparable.

One main reason country club memberships have taken a nosedive is perhaps b/c people don't see the practicality of it if they have to move at some point down the line. And as we've seen during this recession, you don't always get to choose when you have to move.
neophytea
In my area there are elite country clubs which have a very rich membership. they willingly and can easily afford to pay for the kind of country club they want. And pay and treat their staff well. They seem to be doing well. Even though the golf course doesn't get much use.

Besides the economy, too many country clubs have upper management problems because they have a king or bully personality. And they are two faced and are not respectful of the staff and members that are either paying the bills or doing the work.

Not all country clubs have an upper management problem, their problem is the economy and a lack of potential members in the community. But I don't know how to fix that.

A couple of years back I joined a country club, and after the initiation fee I found I was paying $112 a round to walk - cart was $10 or $15 more per round. Since I could play as many as 4 rounds at several nice public courses for the same money, I quit. I am retired and can walk on a lot of nice public courses during the week and play in the morning or afternoon without a T time. There are also plenty of fine restaurants who want my business. As a senior I am now playing a lot of nice public courses and eating in nice restaurants and saving some of the money I would have paid the country club.

Too many of the country clubs pay low wages and salaries to the employees and staff. I was surprised to learn that a lot of clubs keep the profit from the pro shop. Assistant pros who earn minimum wage and only a part of their lesson fee, ground crews that are paid minimum wage and are expected to work like dogs because there are only half the workers needed. When the Greenskeeper, Pro and a**. Pro are seen driving mowers and pulling weeds, on a regular basis. Workers are not allowed to play the course. And if they are alowed to play the course for free they usually are too tired to play after the long hours and number of days they work And on weekdays at the country club there may be 6 players on a good day.

I have heard of Clubs that publically blame all the employees for anything stolen and even yell at them in public. Then when they find it was a member or burglar, there is never a public apology to the wrongly accused.

A public course near my house which I used to play, is now too crowded to even walk on. This is any time of day any day of the week. And they treat their customers like they are members of a nice country club. A real nice course and as a further example - the staff and workers look like they are having fun and they know their customer names.
cherokee8215
QUOTE (tonyy @ Oct 16 2009, 04:01 PM) *
Bobby, I'm from Lancaster PA, would you mind messaging me about the country club that has the $300/month unlimited golf? I've been looking for a club to join, just haven't found the right one yet. Thanks a bunch


I'm not from Lancaster, but have a couple of buddies in the area and have played a few of the local clubs. I would suspect that Meadia Heights CC is pretty much giving away the store right now. I haven't played there in 8-10 years so I couldn't tell you much about the course though. With the exception of Lancaster CC, I'd bet most of the clubs in the Harrisburg/Lancaster/York areas are cutting good deals right now.
cherokee8215
I sit on the membership committee at my club, have studied the issues intensely, and could probably talk to you for hours about this topic, shifting demographics, trends, etc.

I'm one of about 5 members at my club under age 35, and the only who isn't the child of a member. Initiation for junior members (under 35) is pretty much zero right now but nobody is interested. The guys me age who can afford it don't have time to play due to work, children, etc. The guys who have the time don't have the money for dues, so they buy a season pass at the local muni for $700.

We cut the fee for over-35 members greatly (to an amount equal to or less than the annual dues) and got maybe 30 new members this year. Still doesn't fully offset the 100 (of various categories) that we lost. There's a ton of politics in the club right now among the older members in the club about this membership-decline issue. Mostly the guys still thinking it's 1975. Our club needs a lot of upgrades to appeal to young families, but nobody wants to pay for it.

People are a lot more transient and noncommital these days, which impacts the clubs with hefty initiation fees. I know I personally considered joining one club with a $40,000+ nonrefundable initiation fee, even for juniors, although they get to pay over time. Nuts, I know, but this was in the Dow 14,000 days. It's probably the best golf facility within 75 miles. The day after joining, my employer could relocate me across the country on a month's notice. Or lay me off.That $40,000 would be out the window completely. Gone are the days where you got a local job and stayed there for the next 30 years, or owned a stable business that could ride out any recession. People's lives change, they move, and the non-ultra high worth folks don't want to commit to something this large. I think the prestigious clubs with the big initiation fees will be the next series of losers, as the baby boomers pass on and their children don't replace them in the membership rosters.

Even the guys making $300,000 a year in my average cost of living area have mortgages on $600,000 houses, Mercedes lease payments, private school tuition, and wives shoe habits, and $40,000 + $6,000 dues/fees for a club membership they'll use once a week is no small change. Those fees aren't sustainable in the long run once the baby boomers are elderly except for old money/inheiritance situations.
Borthwick
Good post, Cherokee. It's good to hear from someone who wrestles this. To what extent do corporate memberships make up the membership at your club? I have to think that corporate entities make up a fair share of the membership at those uber-high inititiation fee clubs.
cherokee8215
QUOTE (Borthwick @ Oct 20 2009, 03:45 AM) *
Good post, Cherokee. It's good to hear from someone who wrestles this. To what extent do corporate memberships make up the membership at your club? I have to think that corporate entities make up a fair share of the membership at those uber-high inititiation fee clubs.


My club (the cheaper of the two I mentioned in my post) has maybe 6-7 coporate memberships, consisting of about 4-5 people each. Most of those people are actually pretty active in the club. The companies have been the same for probably the past 10+ years although the individuals associated with them has changed somewhat. It's actually a good deal, since at least before the recent pricing collapse, you could get in 4-5 people on a corporate membership for what you'd pay in initiation for about 1.5 individuals.

I don't think the "big money" local club has corporate memberships. I guess they figure everyone can afford their own?
bma725
The private club model in this area is dying. There's two clubs that I would say are healthy, one of them is one of the most exclusive in the country, and they are always healthy no matter the economic conditions. Even during the Great Depression they managed to do very well.

The others, it's a struggle. Last year one long standing private club(100+ years) was forced to go public because they had a mass exodus of members. Earlier this year we had another club in the area that had to open up to public play on Mondays and Tuesdays just to stay afloat and that was just the beginning. One place that was private got bought by a guy that owns two other private courses, with the intention of giving you three courses for your membership. He couldn't get enough people, so now two of those are forced to allow public play just so he can pay his debts.

Yesterday, the first of the big dominoes fell. One of the longest standing clubs in the area(80+ years) was sold because of dwindling membership, and they will now be owned by another dying business, a social club. It will still remain private for now, but they are down to 150 memberships, when a few years ago they were over 500...so it doesn't look good.

It's just a bad time to be a private club in this economy, especially when there's a glut of them in this area.
InTheHole
The other side of this- what keeps people from joining a club?

For me, the initiation fee and the fact that I have to find a replacement member if I decide to leave (isn't that called an equity membership? I'm not up on all the lingo). To me, that's just bad business.

There is a VERY reasonable club in my area- $6,000/year - if I play 50 times that comes out to $120/round. For this I get to play only one course and I can't bring my kid (he's another $800/year). Plus the first year is an additional $1000 initiation. Each year is an $800 minimum in the restaurant (that's no problem, we do that anyway). That's the cheapest club in the area.

We are blessed to have excellent muni courses here... top price there is about $60 but most of the time I play for much less as a resident. Last year I spent a whopping $1700 to play golf the whole year. That includes lessons and buying some equipment.

I just can't justify the club as a sound financial decision. Would I love to join? You bet. I just can't justify spending more than 3 times the money to play one single course.

Maybe the muni's are partially subsidised by tax money, I don't know. But for some reason, they have almost the same quality and can support themselves. I looked at the stats- they play the same number of rounds per year as the private clubs in our area.

To make a club worthwhile, you have to play a lot of golf- 60-100 rounds per year. Most people who work a 40 hour week don't have time for that. And I'm talking small numbers- we have clubs in the area that are $40,000/year and others with $80,000+ initiation fees. Obviously, you're not joining them because you can justify it financially- you just have money to burn in those cases.
highergr0und
What about the dynamics of the club once you join? What services are being offered to make new members feel welcome?

Here's my experience at the club I'm looking at...

I was given a tour of the facilities, and the one question I really couldn't get a straight answer to was "How easy is it to get paired up with folks?". Going into it, I will only know one other member, who I believe only knows one other one. They have minimums of a 3-some to make tee times in the ideal windows, ie weekend mornings/lunch times. The lady giving me the tour wasn't real sure, and the pro/asst pro couldn't tell me anything except that I could probably join a money game that goes on every Saturday around 10 am. I'm an outgoing guy and am not scared to join a group, but it's a little daunting that they couldn't come up with an answer on how I could possibly get out aside from joining a $20 game. I kind of expected a "There's a bunch of regulars you can join up with" response. They told me that it's usually slow in the afternoons and I could go out then if I couldn't find anyone. Nothing like playing by yourself and taking 4 hours right out of the middle of the day...

I'm not sure how your clubs are set up, but having a good welcoming committee and people to really get new members into the fold would be great. Organizing new member groups, setting aside tee times (maybe one per hour) on weekend mornings where a few singles can join up, getting members to encourage new ones to join them, etc could go a long way to make new guys feel welcome. Drive that point home with advertising and when you're courting them. I'm probably still going to join, but the first little while could be tough while it's apparent that it's pretty much 100% up to me to find people to play with.
InTheHole
That's a good point. I know of one local club that does have a welcome committee- they contact you right after you join and take you out for a round, then hook you up with some other members who need additional players.

Also, ask if there is a league- another club I know has a Wednesday 5:15 PM shotgun start league. Not sure of the format, but you're bound to meet people that way.
smith5606
QUOTE (highergr0und @ Oct 20 2009, 11:23 AM) *
What about the dynamics of the club once you join? What services are being offered to make new members feel welcome?

Here's my experience at the club I'm looking at...

I was given a tour of the facilities, and the one question I really couldn't get a straight answer to was "How easy is it to get paired up with folks?". Going into it, I will only know one other member, who I believe only knows one other one. They have minimums of a 3-some to make tee times in the ideal windows, ie weekend mornings/lunch times. The lady giving me the tour wasn't real sure, and the pro/asst pro couldn't tell me anything except that I could probably join a money game that goes on every Saturday around 10 am. I'm an outgoing guy and am not scared to join a group, but it's a little daunting that they couldn't come up with an answer on how I could possibly get out aside from joining a $20 game. I kind of expected a "There's a bunch of regulars you can join up with" response. They told me that it's usually slow in the afternoons and I could go out then if I couldn't find anyone. Nothing like playing by yourself and taking 4 hours right out of the middle of the day...

I'm not sure how your clubs are set up, but having a good welcoming committee and people to really get new members into the fold would be great. Organizing new member groups, setting aside tee times (maybe one per hour) on weekend mornings where a few singles can join up, getting members to encourage new ones to join them, etc could go a long way to make new guys feel welcome. Drive that point home with advertising and when you're courting them. I'm probably still going to join, but the first little while could be tough while it's apparent that it's pretty much 100% up to me to find people to play with.

Spot on.

There is a great private club here that I would join in a minute but I don't know a soul who plays there. Most of the people I enjoy playing with aren't in a position to join with me. Who would I play with? In the past I have found a great deal of clannishness in other private club environments that I just don't want to deal with. Sent something up that would make it easier for new members to assimilate with the existing groups (including the so-called men's club which I have found to be a joke), and I might change my mind.

I love this club and would love to be able to play it. I just will not put myself in a position that by doing so, I would doom myself to an untenable choice - either pay extra for muni golf with my friends or play as a single constantly. Sounds like the most logical choice is to do nothing. If what I read on this thread is accurate, the club that I wanted to join will probably end up public. Problem solved.
brian91
a club in my area went from 150k initiation fee to "what ever they can get" one membership sold for 29k....quite the difference.
CPSOX
QUOTE (InTheHole @ Oct 20 2009, 10:43 AM) *
The other side of this- what keeps people from joining a club?

For me, the initiation fee and the fact that I have to find a replacement member if I decide to leave (isn't that called an equity membership? I'm not up on all the lingo). To me, that's just bad business.

There is a VERY reasonable club in my area- $6,000/year - if I play 50 times that comes out to $120/round. For this I get to play only one course and I can't bring my kid (he's another $800/year). Plus the first year is an additional $1000 initiation. Each year is an $800 minimum in the restaurant (that's no problem, we do that anyway). That's the cheapest club in the area.

We are blessed to have excellent muni courses here... top price there is about $60 but most of the time I play for much less as a resident. Last year I spent a whopping $1700 to play golf the whole year. That includes lessons and buying some equipment.

I just can't justify the club as a sound financial decision. Would I love to join? You bet. I just can't justify spending more than 3 times the money to play one single course.

Maybe the muni's are partially subsidised by tax money, I don't know. But for some reason, they have almost the same quality and can support themselves. I looked at the stats- they play the same number of rounds per year as the private clubs in our area.

To make a club worthwhile, you have to play a lot of golf- 60-100 rounds per year. Most people who work a 40 hour week don't have time for that. And I'm talking small numbers- we have clubs in the area that are $40,000/year and others with $80,000+ initiation fees. Obviously, you're not joining them because you can justify it financially- you just have money to burn in those cases.



What club has $40k annual dues in New Jersey? I can't imagine that....

Anywho, if you're looking into joining a club because it's the cheapest way to play golf, don't even bother. It'll never be the cheapest way. However, it is by far the most efficient and least stressful way to play. You come and go as you please, especially if there aren't tee times.

As for joining a group, it's not a big deal. You went to kindergarden without friends. You went to college without friends. You'll find a group of guys to buddy up with in no time, assuming you have any kind of social skills.
mitchleary
Yeah for 40k plus you can play a lot of golf on public courses and still have money left over for golf vacations.
Borthwick
This is most likely not that unique, but the area I live in has two distinct and sometimes clashing demographics: Been here's and came here's (I know the apostrophes aren't appropriate, but "heres" just doesn't look right). I'm the latter, but intend to fit in with the former.

I joined my club knowing full well it was a club of been here's. I didn't care. I showed up early on the weekends and the pro fit me in with some short groups. Some groups I joined in their money games, others I didn't. If I just feel like playing a practice round by myself, I can show up in the early afternoons and have the place nearly to myself. Likewise, my wife and I can play as a twosome in the afternoons and not feel pressured by groups following us. I like it. Long story short, four months later I have new friends, my new club feels like home, and I'm playing golf when I want to at my pace, the way it should be.

I played with the crowds for decades and now I don't. I like this style better. YMMV.
Borthwick
QUOTE (CPSOX @ Oct 20 2009, 03:12 PM) *
QUOTE (InTheHole @ Oct 20 2009, 10:43 AM) *
The other side of this- what keeps people from joining a club?

For me, the initiation fee and the fact that I have to find a replacement member if I decide to leave (isn't that called an equity membership? I'm not up on all the lingo). To me, that's just bad business.

There is a VERY reasonable club in my area- $6,000/year - if I play 50 times that comes out to $120/round. For this I get to play only one course and I can't bring my kid (he's another $800/year). Plus the first year is an additional $1000 initiation. Each year is an $800 minimum in the restaurant (that's no problem, we do that anyway). That's the cheapest club in the area.

We are blessed to have excellent muni courses here... top price there is about $60 but most of the time I play for much less as a resident. Last year I spent a whopping $1700 to play golf the whole year. That includes lessons and buying some equipment.

I just can't justify the club as a sound financial decision. Would I love to join? You bet. I just can't justify spending more than 3 times the money to play one single course.

Maybe the muni's are partially subsidised by tax money, I don't know. But for some reason, they have almost the same quality and can support themselves. I looked at the stats- they play the same number of rounds per year as the private clubs in our area.

To make a club worthwhile, you have to play a lot of golf- 60-100 rounds per year. Most people who work a 40 hour week don't have time for that. And I'm talking small numbers- we have clubs in the area that are $40,000/year and others with $80,000+ initiation fees. Obviously, you're not joining them because you can justify it financially- you just have money to burn in those cases.



What club has $40k annual dues in New Jersey? I can't imagine that....



I played Jasna Polana in June. I would not fall out of my chair if someone told me they were in that range.
highergr0und
Pine Valley in NJ is probably it (if you weren't being sarcastic)... Super exclusive, usually ranks top 5 in best courses in the world/US, #1 in 2007 and 2009 by Golf Mag, number 2 right now in GD for 2009. People that pay 40k a year for golf probably have enough money to not even worry about it (and probably don't play that much).
CPSOX
QUOTE (highergr0und @ Oct 20 2009, 02:43 PM) *
Pine Valley in NJ is probably it (if you weren't being sarcastic)... Super exclusive, usually ranks top 5 in best courses in the world/US, #1 in 2007 and 2009 by Golf Mag, number 2 right now in GD for 2009. People that pay 40k a year for golf probably have enough money to not even worry about it (and probably don't play that much).


Pine Valley isn't anywhwere near that number. I'd be surprised if their montly dues were $500. They have ~1000 members and 1.25 courses there to care for. You'd be surprised how relatively inexpensive some of the famous classic courses are compared to newer ones.

The absolute highest I've ever heard of is $2k a month and the club has their own private airport to tend to. $40k in NJ? No way.

crtssxc
It could possibly be liberty national, 500k initiation fee, yearly dues have to be expensive although I have never done much research. Northern NJ has a good amount of "old" money and golf is very expensive. Like I said I dont have exact numbers on most of the clubs but even semi-private memberships in my area can go for 5k/yr and the courses arent that well maintained.
Pepperturbo
QUOTE (CPSOX @ Oct 20 2009, 04:43 PM) *
QUOTE (highergr0und @ Oct 20 2009, 02:43 PM) *
Pine Valley in NJ is probably it (if you weren't being sarcastic)... Super exclusive, usually ranks top 5 in best courses in the world/US, #1 in 2007 and 2009 by Golf Mag, number 2 right now in GD for 2009. People that pay 40k a year for golf probably have enough money to not even worry about it (and probably don't play that much).


Pine Valley isn't anywhwere near that number. I'd be surprised if their montly dues were $500. They have ~1000 members and 1.25 courses there to care for. You'd be surprised how relatively inexpensive some of the famous classic courses are compared to newer ones.

The absolute highest I've ever heard of is $2k a month and the club has their own private airport to tend to. $40k in NJ? No way.


You're absolutely right about many older well managed "named" courses costing less per month then newer club/courses that have 1M+ designer fee's + general construction + contemporary tournament turf costs; throw in environmental construction and maintenance costs and they have a whooping nut to meet. All depends on their demographics. My last equity club dues cost $1200 per month. + annual trail and range fees, tip pots, quarterlies, and other goodies, plus tournament costs, etc.

I've been talking to a number of courses recently as we are looking for our next club. Many are flexible and looking for ways to attract new members. If a club has a long history they still have a waiting list. The ones that are struggling have middle priced homes surrounding the course. So far we're liking PGA West, 6 world-class courses and lots of amenities.
cherokee8215
QUOTE (highergr0und @ Oct 20 2009, 11:23 AM) *
I was given a tour of the facilities, and the one question I really couldn't get a straight answer to was "How easy is it to get paired up with folks?". Going into it, I will only know one other member, who I believe only knows one other one. They have minimums of a 3-some to make tee times in the ideal windows, ie weekend mornings/lunch times. The lady giving me the tour wasn't real sure, and the pro/asst pro couldn't tell me anything except that I could probably join a money game that goes on every Saturday around 10 am. I'm an outgoing guy and am not scared to join a group, but it's a little daunting that they couldn't come up with an answer on how I could possibly get out aside from joining a $20 game. I kind of expected a "There's a bunch of regulars you can join up with" response. They told me that it's usually slow in the afternoons and I could go out then if I couldn't find anyone. Nothing like playing by yourself and taking 4 hours right out of the middle of the day...


I was worried about this a little in the beginning when first joining my club. We also require a minimum of 3 names to make a weekend morning tee time. Turns out, at least half of those groups never find a fourth, some even end up as twosomes, so if you just show up you'll get put with a group pretty quickly.

I typically like to play in the afternoons though, when the course is empty. The pro told me about a couple of guys who usually play midafternoon as singles or twosomes but welcome company. I met up with them, found out we have similar playing styles (play fast, not too serious, no betting/matches) and we've become friends and play together at least once a week.

So as long as the membership isn't too stuffy/cliquish overall, you'll have no problem. My place is pretty low on the snob factor, just about everyone is friendly and welcoming. Sure, there are money games among old friends, but they'll take in outsiders. Your experience elsewhere may vary. Some people may not welcome outsiders, but if the club has gained a bunch of new members recently, there will be other people in your shoes.
AltusBeliever
Here in my part of NC the clubs in the smaller markets are really struggling. Most of the smaller towns/cities built nice clubs for the management of the furniture and textile mills. Now that those industries are kaput the clubs are hurting and will continue to hurt. As there is little to no new industry they have little hope of attracting new members except by reducing the cost- in effect stealing members from the public courses. Problem is the public access courses are hurting,too, so they slash prices to get players, thereby making it harder for the private clubs to lure in new members. Ultimately, IMO, it is a matter of contraction. Courses must close thereby decreasing supply so that the cost can go up. Ugly thought I know, as no one wants to be the course that gets shuttered.
A club of which I am a non-resident member offered a great promotion this summer by waiving dues and financing the intiation fee over a 3 yr period. Probably picked up 75 members, if not more. Question is how long will they stay when they have to pay the normal freight?
A no win situation. Need to allow the deduction of dues again and lighten up the deductibility of meals and entertainment-will see an increase in the fortunes of clubs then.
Ezgolfer
I recently became member at this course .
Home of the 2009 PGA national championship .
http://mynewmexicogolf.com/golf/proto/myne...iors_course.htm
Super deal. 4K intiation plus 375 /month for me and my son .
50% off green fee and two free pass for my guests every month , free range at both courses . Multiple other discounts at resort , SPA ,restaurant and pro shop.

Love both courses ....
Onebulldogs
QUOTE (bazinky @ Oct 16 2009, 10:35 PM) *
The one thing that I have not seen ANY clubs do, is try raising the age limit on junior members. I think this would be an effective strategy that wouldn't lower the real or perceived value to the existing members. For example, I didn't move to the city I currently live in until my 30's (long period of schooling), and hadn't decided to live here permanently until after I was too old for most junior memberships. The wife and I are currently saving for a higher-end club (I don't like doing installments, and we need a few house renovations first), otherwise there are several clubs that would have my revenue stream already ...


Well said. I had the same problem. I would recommend clubs offer their "Junior" membership to all single men (or women), regardless of age.

Because of graduate school, I was over the age limit for a junior membership by the time I settled in one city. Furthermore, I wasn't married. At the club I considered, the only membership available was a "family" membership. The food minimum was based upon the same. In order to eat my minimum, I would have had to regularly take my dates to the club for dinner. Instead, I play at an upscale public course down the street.
Golferpimp1
Part of the promotion at my current club was the junior memberships are until you are 40, and you dont have to make up the initiation fee (the difference between the cheaper junior initiation fee, and the regular initiation fee) at that time, seemed like a good enough deal to get me signed up.
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