Ok, so I recently participated in a two day stroke play tournament where flights were determined based on first day results. It was known that here was going to be a bump rule if for the flight except for the Championship, which makes sense and also the first flight. The first flight consisted of 75 - 78; I shot a 76 on Saturday so I thought anyone had a chance. Well, when I finished the round, someone who shot a 78 on Saturday shot 64 today. I am calling BS, it is not statically possible to improve by 14 stokes from one day to the next. I did not expect to win since I posted a smashing 79, due to bad putting one bad drive. I figured before teeing off that if I could shoot 72-74 then I would have a chance but not even close with a 64 being posted. I am considering emailing the pro, since I know him and express my concern for not having a bump rule for the 1st flight. It is obvious that this guy should have been in the championship flight.

What are your thoughts?

My assessement would be sandbagger. Howerver, anytime you play a handicap event you are going to have sandbaggers. Your could complain, but what do you expect to happen? The best bet if you are worried about sandbaggers is to play non handicap tournaments.

Holy crap!! I once shot 74 - 66 in a 2-day and I caught so much hell for that (no one was mad though). Thats 8 strokes and I felt weird playing so much better the next day. But the round was for real. So it is possible, but 14 strokes and a 64....man thats improvement.

The event was not handicaped. It was flighted after first round score. The only thing I would try to change is some of the rules to help make the tournament fair. They have bump rules for shooting better than a number from 6-9 based on a random draw from a hat. So why not have the same rule for the first flight. I understand not having that rule for the championship flight.

I had a friend play a pepsi tourny and he went the other way. He was leading by shooting a 64 and the next day shot 14 strokes more. He lost and was not very happy.

I managed 67 to lead by 4 and then 81 to loose by 4 many years ago......still have the nightmares today......

Here are two perfect examples of the fact that it IS statistically possible to improve (or in these cases, implode) by 14 strokes from one day to the next. Why is it that if you shoot the low round first, then the high round second, the poor guy just had a bad day, but if you shoot them the other way around, then the guy's a sandbagger?

Someone going 78 / 64 should be admired. You should shake the guy by the hand and say well done not "call BS". Be happy for the guy.

people like you pi$$ me off

Played Sat. morning, cool and damp out. I have a bad back and the weather killed me, shot 95. Went out Sun. afternoon same course, it was nice and warm and shot 75. I guess it could happen.

I do agree that it sounds kind of fishy... but you've got to be careful when calling statistics into play. While not probable, it's definitely possible. That's why the game is played. A two round sample set isn't much to go on. Do you know anything about the golfer in question like handicap or what caused his 78 the first day (penalty shots, bad lies, etc)? If you've got proof, it might be worth a phone call. If you're going on odds alone, I'd leave it alone.

While there is a high probability that you were dealing with a sandbagger, there is an even higher probability that you couldn't prove it. Statistically that kind of overnight improvement doesn't happen often, but it does happen occasionally.

In this year's Deutsche Bank event, Ryuji Imada shot a 66 in the second round. In the final round he posted an 81...a 15 stroke differential. In the US Open Fred Funk went 70-82. While agreeing that the odds are very high against it, a really hot putter or a really bad day back to back can lead to that kind of inconsistency.

I would never call BS on somebody that does this once. If it happens at every tournament, then I scream BS right in his face.

MY last two rounds were 47-38 and 46-36. I was clearly sandbagging for the back nine. You lost. you were in the first flight, and a better golfer played better than you. Wear it, and shoot lower scores to win next year. If you were in the c flight, then you would have a respectable gripe, but the first flight? Come on.

Why does it seem that every club championship runner up/non winner lost to a sandbagger on this board recently? Maybe you lost to a better golfer... Nah that isn't possible.

Don't forget that famous sandbagger Curtis Strange - first round of 80 in the 1985 Masters followed by a 65 - a 15 shot improvement!

To quote the OP, "I am calling BS, it is not statically possible to improve by 14 stokes from one day to the next." Oh wait, that's a 15 shot improvement, so I guess it's statiscally possible in this case

I have played in a few of these, but they were 2 man scrambles which the flights were based on the first day's score. It's a bad system period. In ours the Championship flight paid more then the the other flights, so it was stupid for someone to sandbag in the 1st flight. Once the flighting begins you don't know if you will be at the top of your flight or or the bottom, and if it is the bottom, you are in sad shape.

This guy shooting 64 is a player and players are not sandbaggers. Players play to win the top prize and one has to have a huge amount of talent in order to shot 78 the first day and then 64 the next. Even for the player, 64's just don't come at a snap of a finger. Who know what his issue was the first day, but I would bet this guy has a + cap or very close to it.

When you get into that group of guys who shot 85 and come back with 71, and his cap is a 8 or so, then you can call him a bagger.

Exactly ... very few amateur golfers can shoot a legitimate 64 on a full length (i.e., not "Executive") golf course. And generally the attitude required to hit that level does not sandbag.

I do believe sandbagging happens. Probably a lot ... but I guess I still never use that word unless it is very clear someone is doing it ... and really the only way to be sure is seeing someone do it over time.

Being consistant is pretty much the Holy Grail of golf. As a decent amateur ... I can commonly vary by a half dozen strokes or more just during two weekend days. Even the best in the world can easily have variances of a dozen week to week. (Amazing how often a pro will get hot, win a tournament, and then miss the cut the next week).

From my point of view, I'm very careful about making a sandbagging accusation ... because if it is in error, it can easily become the biggest insult in golf.

Think of this: Say you are pretty much a scratch golfer. You think you can shoot 72 - or more likely mid-to-high 70's. (A scratch golfer can easily shoot a 78 on any given day - in the USGA system,you only actually shoot your handicap about 25% of the time).

The next day, everything is humming - one of those days when every part of the game works. You shoot a 64. It really is an achievement - especially in tournament conditions. (Really - even the best amatuers do not commonly shoot 64s). But what if instead of being praised and toasted, you are instead accused of sandbagging? Of cheating?

Sandbagging exists ... and it sucks. And (as I have watched trends over the years) appears to me to be getting gradually worse as the years pass. In fact, at the tournaments that I have my company sponsor at conferences (lighthearted events), we now commonly give an Award called "Most Honest Foursome" to the group that finishes last. Its tongue in cheek, but still ...

However, there's another trend I've noticed that (to me) is even more distrurbing: Sour grapes after tournaments [NOTE: I'm not saying the OP here is doing that - this is a more general observation]. Indeed, when I think back on the last few tournaments I've played in (mostly just charity stuff, with small prizes) ... there is now almost invariably some griping and grumbling afterwards, some assertions, either implied or stated, that the winner somehow cheated.

Sandbagging, or cheating in any way ... is against the Rules of golf - and also (to me, a bigger deal) goes against the spirit of the game.

But the spirit of the game also says one congratulates winners. Especially if they shoot an unusually good round.

Not sure if I'm making my point that clearly here ... but still.