Don't know if anyone noticed but there was an illustration of how the provisional ball rule works (and doesn't work) during yesterday's final round of the Deutsch Bank championship.

I believe it was #12, Padraig Harrington pulled his tee shot left into the trees. With the possibility of a lost ball, Harrington went ahead and hit a provisional ball to the middle of the fairway.

His original ball was found but Harrington deemed it unplayable. Apparently, two club lengths would not give relief and there was no way to drop back on a line between the ball and the hole, so Paddy chose to replay the ball from the original position, in this case returning to the tee.

The provisional ball could not be used because a provisional may only be used if there is a possibility the original ball may be lost or out of bounds. As soon as the first ball was found, the provisional had to be abandoned.

Thus, Paddy's trek back to the tee to hit yet another... (the loneliest walk in golf...)

Great example and good explanation. It is confusing to most new golfers.

That is a good illustration, though on any public course that walk is going to be more humiliating than lonely, as you approach the waiting group on the tee who can't believe what they're seeing.

Not only that, but it also irritates the group behind, due to a slow pace of play.

Only if they are not golfers. If they are golfers, they understand that is part of the game. If they are not golfers, do you really care what they think? Play the game the way it is intended...

Kevin

Yeah - and if the universal gravitational constant would drop 15% I'd be considered a trim guy.

In the meantime the group behind you is going to be irritated.

I mostly "play by the rules". But there has to be a reason. I am not going to make a bunch of golfers wait while I head back to the tee without a reason.

If there is some form of serious competition going on, that is a reason. Playing a round where the result is my own score and maybe $15 bet with my buddy isn't a reason. You can legally post a score and settle a bet in other ways.

There are many different views on this and there are tradeoffs to be made - that is how I would do it.

dave

ps. IMHO, assuming the folks that have views different from you to "not be golfers" is pretty presumptive. I can imagine others taking a similar view of folks with (clearly) no consideration of the impact of their action on others on the course. Of course they "aren't golfers" so this doesn't matter, I guess.

If you are playing by the rules of the game, you are in the right. I think I can "presume" that without argument? What game do you play, and why would you attack me on the premise that I don't have the right to follow the rules?

Kevin

Kev, for what it's worth, I agree with you. Take the walk and play it by the Rules. If the group playing behind doesn't understand, too bad...

I'm not saying the group behind may not understand, I'm saying they may get irritated. How would you feel playing a round with a nice pace of play, then all of a sudden, you see one or more people on the group ahead walking back towards your tee box, and hitting a provisional shot(s). We, as golfers, should know the rules. But we should also know reasonable pace of play and should and should be considerate of others. I often make small bets with others in my group, but they would understand why I would not take a provisional if there are people behind already on the tee box, waiting for us to clear. I would usually only take a provisional if I'm already at the tee box or if there is no or there is a slow group behind. IMO, unless you are playing in a tourny or for a large amount of money, be reasonable when wanting to take a provisional.

That is actually something I did not know. I was under the presumption that the provisional was to prevent you from having to go back to the tee box, and the situation described in the OP would be perfectly acceptable to play the provisional. I'll do some looking, but could someone possibly provide a link to the ruling or decision that states this?

yes, this is news to me. It is good to know the rules.

In this instance, the whole process probably took a good 10-15 minutes from the time he hit is first 2 tee shots to the time he was in the fairway with his third and they surely fell behind the pace of play. were they subsequently put on the clock? if so, how is that fair? and if not, how is that fair? seems like a double edge sword.

I understand your point, but if you are playing by the Rules, you aren't going back to the tee to play a "provisional ball." Unfortunately, many people do not understand what the true meaning of a "provisional ball" is, and they think it just means to "tee up another one so you don't have to come back and hit another ball." That may work for you and help to speed along play, but it is not how the game is to be played if you are going by the Rules.

In my view, this is similar to the guys who hit a ball "Out of Bounds" and then go up and drop a ball near where the first one went out. Sure it speeds up play, but it's not correct according to the Rules.

The game is to be played according to the Rules. Ignorance of the Rules or disagreement with them is not an acceptable reason to violate them. But, each day we get many opportunities to choose the path we go down, some choose to abide by the rules, others don't... it's your decision.

Best regards.

Excellent post!



Kevin

It's Rule 27-2 c: Provisional Ball

c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.




A provisional ball is used ONLY if the original ball is lost or out out bounds. Once you find your original ball, you have to abandon the provisional ball and use your original ball.

Most of the rounds I play are recreational, so if I'm not playing by the rules and I need to bring a new ball into play, I'll drop a ball to speed up play if I've hit no provisional.

Now if I'm playing by the rules, as soon as I make the decision to walk back and bring another ball in play, I'll signal a waiting group to go ahead and hit. As I wait for the group to tee off, I'll tell my playing partners that they could hit their 2nd shots while the following group is chasing down their drives. I first move back to the tee when the following group have teed off and are walking.

As I have to walk back 250 yds. the others have more than enough time to get to their balls and hit through before I'm ready to hit again anyway, and nobody really has too wait for me to do it right.

Paddy did it right...well almost.

you all make excellent points. the last tournament i played in a gentleman had to hit a total of five tee shots. imagine this: first tee shot, hooked left, provisional, look for golf ball, find it out of bounds and unplayable, repeat this four more times. by the time the poor fellow finally got one into play there were three groups on the tee box. oh well, that's golf.

however, i think during a casual round, when the course is jam packed, a little common sense should prevail. hit a provisional and play your 4th shot from the spot of the provisional. a lot of folks on this forum complain about pace of play and since most of us walk not only is it a long and lonely trek back to the tee box it also consumes a lot of time.

just my opinion...

If you are playing by the rules and heading back to the tee then "you are right".

If you are a hole and a half behind with things stacking up behind you, and you think that the only consideration is the ROG, then you are also inconsiderate. Depending on the circumstances, going back to the tee may still "be proper" (serious competition, you are only holding up a single group and can let them through, you are not playing that slowly, etc).

But I strongly object to the notion that the ROG are the only consideration here.

dave

ps. My wife plays golf rarely. I will hold her to the rules and put you about 5 groups behind us on a crowded course and see what you think.

OMG! Way too much discussion!

When you get back to the tee box, explain what happened to the next group- if they're OK with it, great, continue.

If they're not, allow them to play through. Your playing partner will stand aside as they play. When they're done, take your shot.

Simple.

When did I get 1 1/2 holes behind with everybody stacking up?

Absolutely, your wife and beginners should just be out there for a good time. I would never force someone to play by the rules of golf, however, I should be allowed to if that's what I prefer. Live and let live... it's not a race!

Kevin

My only point is that there "are other considerations" and the fact that you acknowledge this should not generate a question of "what game do you play?"

dave



ps. For the record I play "crummy golf"

I don't feel I deserved being called presumptuous. If you are going to dish it out, you better expect it returned in kind.

Kevin

This thread has gone off topic with the assertion that following the rules will slow the pace of play. My intent was only to show how the provisional ball rule works / doesn't work IN PRACTICE as seen at this weekend's golf tournament.

Fact is, a return to the tee box by a single golfer to replay a shot should NOT affect the pace of play. Sure, it creates a momentary wait for the following group on the tee box but it should take no time at all to catch back up to their group and rejoin them on the green and continue along as nothing happened.

+1 Kevin! As always a good reply to a good question, if you are going to play golf then play it the way it is intended, if not take up another sport! if you don't play by the rules it is NOT golf, you can give it your own name if you like.

Good Topic - and the rule is clear for lost ball or ob - what is the rule if ball might be in a hazard - lateral or otherwise - can you hit a provisional in this case - or must you walk up and see if the ball is in the hazard or unplaybale from the hazard?

See post #14 above for the text to Rule 27-2a, but no you cannot play a provisional for a ball that went in a hazard.

Here's what I love.

Course is jam packed on a weekend.

Average Joe knocks one 280 into the woods. Anxious to play by the rules, he tees up a provisional, and that one, too, goes into the woods, but not as deep so he thinks he can find it....A few minutes later, here he is with his playing partners searching for his first ball. Can't find it. Now he has to search for his *provisional ball*.

(on the tee, the group behind is waiting).

Joe does find his provisional, but as he's getting ready to hit it, his original ball is found. He trudges back deep into the woods, examines the lie, determines two club lengths ain't going to do it, and, dropping on a line with the pin won't be helpful -- though, since he's never played this course, before, he wastes more time walking around, looking at this possible option.

Now there are TWO groups on the tee waiting. Joe has to walk all the way back, and tee up in front of two irritated four-somes, because he's got no reasonable alternative, thanks to The Rules? What do you think his chances of THIS tee-shot being solid, are?

Let's count:
time to hit 2 tee shots
time to find 2 balls (which might not be close together)
time to assess the lie and drop options
time to walk back up the fairway
<repeat as necessary>

That's awful punishing on everyone, fact.

I mostly understand the ROG, and attempt (mostly) to abide by them. I will say both those statements are false in the case of 99.5% of anyone I've ever played with in a recreational, or even somewhat competitive -- eg, 'weekly league' -- setting. There is no other sport I can think of in which The Rules are so badly out of sync with the participants, period. Of course the USGA/R&A will NEVER admit this.

Not true.

You may certainly play a provisional ball if you're not certain if the ball went into a hazard, even if it's likely. The original poster asked "what if the ball might be in a hazard...."?

See USGA Rules/Decisions:
27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

Yes, I missed the "might" in the question. That word changes the answer significantly.

Thanks to the OP for the explanation. I missed it on TV.

You cannot walk back and take a provisional. You must declare and play a provisional before going forward.

So how exactly do you propose that the rule should be reworded?

I'd put monery on your inability to come up with a workable rule.

Threads like this make me glad I'm a weekend hack and would be happy to just drop one and take the penalty and proceed. It's just the difference between shooting a high 80 or low 90.

It should be re-worded to allow you to play the provisional ball in a situation such as the OP, instead of walking back to the tee box if you options with the original ball would require you to do so. There is no logical reason that you should have to abandon the provisional and go back if your original ball is un-playable and 2 clubs, or a line back from the hole, are not viable options. But, I dont get to write the rules, so it is what it is.

And just for clarification, what exactly is monery?

Actually, I believe there is a logical reason that you can't hit the provisional ball when you've (or someone else has) found the original ball. The reason is that in that situation you would then be in the position of chosing which of the two balls you wish to play after seeing the results. That choice is an unreasonable advantage, hence the rule.

But to the larger topic, I wish I lived in a world where you could walk back and play another ball if you lost your first one. But on a public or crowded resort course doing that is so unusual and viewed as so antisocial as to be unacceptable in my view. I wish instead that the rules allowed you to drop a ball in the rough near where you believed your ball to be, or where you believed it went out of bounds, and to take a two-stroke penalty (the equivelent of a stroke and distance penalty) in a casual round. (Much like you estimate where your ball last entered a hazard.) Or I wish that people weren't so concerned with fast play and getting home that they would relax and let you follow the rules as currently written.

+1

Yup...I'd probably run red stakes up and down the perimeter of each and every hole in every course. For Tournament play, let them be removed. Basically you'd treat most lost or unplayable balls as if they entered a lateral hazard. Provisional balls would be in play soley for OOB situations, or not at all.

I don't know...I don't have an answer, but I do know there is a disconnect in this sport unlike any other that I can think of, between the rules and how most people play.

I also dislike rules that punish the weaker golfer out of proportion to the stronger one. That game does that already. Guess what -- I'm betting, in fact I know, having done it -- it's a hell of a lot difficult to return to the tee in front of an impatient audience, and hit a good tee shot, than hitting the original tee shot.

It's like giving a math problem to a class of students....those that don't get it right you give a harder math problem to...if they get that wrong, they have to solve an even MORE difficult problem, etc..

Actually, if you can play the unplayable lie as prescribed by the rules (2 clubs, or line of play to the hole) then you abandon your provisional and play it as you should. If you have no option with your original ball, you play the provisional with the same penalty as if you had gone back to the tee, saving you the trip back to the tee. If you CAN hit your original after taking the required relief from the unplayable lie, you do so. If there is ob directly behind your ball, and your ball is in thick bushes and 2 clubs will not get you out of them, then you could play the provisional. I dont see there being a problem with it, or an unreasonable advantage. It would do nothing except save you the trip back to the tee.

Allow me to give you a real example. I was playing in a tournament, and we came to a long par 3 (225 yards). One guy in my group hits it long left. Since we couldn't see it and there was OB long, he hit a provisional. This shot came to rest less than a foot away. We get up to the green and immediately find his first ball near a tree root with the tree between his ball and the green.

(Now lets pretend that there was no provisional. He would have a few options: 1) Play it as it lies, 2) Declare it unplayable and take 2 club-lengths relief, 3) Declare it unplayable and head back to the tee. Either way, it is very unlikely that he is going to get a bogey.)

Back to the real situation. He wants to ignore the first ball and play the provisional. By doing this he guarantees himself a bogey. We all get out our rule book and figure out that he cannot play the provisional. When we were going over the rules, one of the guys mentioned that he still had the option to go back to the tee. He said that there was no way he would go back 225 yards when he could take 2 club-lengths and be 20 yards away. I think this shows the unfair advantage the player would have if they would be allowed to play their provisional. They would (at least in this case) know what the outcome of one of their options would be.

Yes, but since his original ball was in a position such that his 2 clubs would give him the relief that he needed to play the original ball after dropping from an unplayable lie, he would have to abandon his provisional. If it would have been in such a position that 2 clubs would have left him in an unplayable lie, or going back on that line would have put him ob, he could have saved himself the walk and played his provisional since there were no options to drop his original ball. It's really not that hard to see the logic. Basically, if your only option is to re-tee (because 2 clubs would remain unplayable, and dropping on a line would put him ob) than instead of walking back, he already has his 3rd from the tee in play. Otherwise, he must drop his original ball and abandon the provisional. It simply would save the time and congestion of created by walking back to do the same thing he already did off of the tee.

Rule 27-2 c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded

marrigo -- not to speak for bigred90gt, but he was suggesting a possible change to this rule; not implying it was currently legal.

It makes sense to me -- you've already DONE what you're now going to have to do -- go back and hit from the original spot, under a stroke penalty.

OpusX20 -- in your example, how would the player have been guaranteed a bogey by playing his provisional? It's a par3 and he's lying 3 a foot from his first ball. Could he have gotten up and down that easily?

Ooops That's what I get for quickly reading and replying to a thread fist thing when i get to work before the boss gets in. Sorry if i offended anyone,

Boo - When I said a foot away, I meant a foot away from the hole, not a foot away from the original ball. Sorry for the confusion.

Bigred - I understand the your logic, and I don't disagree with what you are trying to accomplish. I'm just pointing out that it is entirely possible to gain a significant advantage, by being able to pick and choose when your provisional ball is in play.

There are some flaws in your logic though. The first flaw is that the player themselves are the only judge as to whether their ball is unplayable. So, in the scenario above your point about 2 club-lengths "provided him the relief he needed". But, based on what? How is that decided? What if he taking relief will putt him in deep rough with a bad lie? Is that sufficient relief? Or what if taking relief puts him behind another tree? Your rule change would be impossible to enforce. Who is going to decide when the player has been able to take adequate relief. The second flaw in your logic is that it would give people a significant incentive to hit a provisional whenever they hit a ball offline and not just when it might be lost or out of bounds. For example, let's say in my scenario above the guy hits the exact same shot, only there is no OB over and we are certain we will find it. Under your rule change, he should still hit a provisional. Then he can see what his 3rd shot would be if he chose to re-tee instead of going to his ball and evaluating it first.

The only way to get around these two problems is to also change the unplayable lie rule that makes the player the sole decider on when his ball is unplayable. Who are you going to assign that responsibility too? Although well intentioned, it's really not that hard to see the flaws in this logic.

No offense taken, and boo radley is correct. we were discussing how the ruling could be corrected. Newby suggested that he was willing to put monery (his word, not mine lol) down that there was no way to word a rule change for said situation. Reading through some of the decisions on the USGA rules site, anything is possible, and I honestly believe this, as well as the rule against fixing spike marks on the green, should be looked at and revised. Why should I be penalized because some idiot in front of me was never slapped by his momma for dragging his feet? I played the other day, and I am not exaggerating when I say on several holes, there were in excess of 100 spots within a 5' radius of the holes where people were dragging their feet. How are you supposed to putt through that? If it had been a tournament, I would have called the tournament director, or the pro-shop, and had them come out to fix it. You would not believe how bad it was.

I guess it comes down to the definition of an unplayable lie, which according to the rules, is really anything you want. You could technically deem a ball in a divot in the middle of the fairway an unplayable lie if it is situated in such a way that you think the ball will squirt off in an undesired direction when struck. A bad lie in the rough is not unplayable. A ball in the middle of a bush is. A ball behind a tree is not unplayable. You may have to play out sideways, away from the hole, but it is playable. I guess I just have a different definition of an unplayable lie in my mind, knowing what I would take a drop from. To me, the only way a ball will be unplayable is if I cannot make a swing at it. If it is against a tree, nestled between some roots, it is unplayable. If it is in the middle of a bush, it is unplayable. If my drop puts me in 8" of grass, so be it, I'll do my best to hack it out and live with the results. A bad lie in the grass, in my opinion, is not an unplayable lie.

And by definition, a provisional can only be played when the ball is believed to be lost or ob. Just because you hit a ball offline, does not mean it would be lost or ob, so there should be no issue there. If you hit your ball just off the fairway, but it is in 3' deep reeds or fescue, sure, it could easily be lost. If you hit your ball into a couple of trees between the fairways, where there is no significant undergrowth, suck it up and go find it. I seems it all comes down to a players integrity, and I believe it is commonly said that this is a gentlemens game. Honesty and integrity are at the core of this game. A cheat is a cheat, and a simple re-wording of the rule will not change this.


Since we're on this issue, I was reading through the procedure for a provisional ball, and it states that the ball must be believed to be lost outside of a "water hazard" (which I assume means yellow staked hazard). What about a lateral hazard (water or junk, just marked with red stakes)?

The fact that everyone has a different definition of what is unplayable is the exact reason that makes your rule change impossible.

A lateral hazard is a "type" or subset of water hazards. So, the provisional ball rule applies to both.

bigred90gt,

Another example of why your suggested update to the rule isn't fair, but this time from the other side of things. Take the par three situation that OpusX20 stated, except this time the provisional ball goes out of bounds, so he hits another provisional and this finishes in a greenside bunker. Now he gets up to the place where his original ball lay and his ball is found in the same place (ie, in the roots and stymied), but this time, his "option" of going back to the tee means he's lying five in the greenside bunker. At that point, he might well decide that he's better off declaring his ball unplayable, dropping it, then declaring it unplayable again and dropping it again, from whence he might be able to make the green in four.

If the provisional is abandoned (which means you're in the same situation as if you hadn't hit a provisional), then you make your choice about how to deal with the unplayable lie without any knowledge of what the result of each choice is going to be. If you know what the result of one of the choices is, then that gives you a big advantage that you shouldn't have. It's giving you two bites of the cherry.

For the record, I did not say this. I did, however, suggest a rule change which would not rely on someone's subjective opinion as to whether or not they wished to deem their ball unplayable after viewing where their provisional landed.

Also for the record, I did not make the typo, "monery", although I'm sure I've made much worse typos, and hope to do so for many years into the future.

You're right, I apologize for the error. It was Newby who said it, not you. I edited my post to correct it.