So here is my dilemma,

Our local course (where I play league) floods every few years, wreaking havoc on the fairways and rough. Many times, you can drive to the fairway and end up in a bare patch of dirt, with only small clumps of grass here and there around your ball.

Same thing in the "rough" as it is pretty bare in many places as the flooding simply wiped out stuff.

The challenges here are:
a) The fairway is a bit easier - your ball should be on grass. However, if you are in a bare patch, you can't even drop - you have to place your ball on one of the little clumps as in the worst kill zones there aren't big enough patches of grass to drop on
b) The rough is a bit trickier; should you have to play off solid dirt/mud if your ball goes here? And again, if you do want to put it on something (even weeds) you have to place it.

Personally, I try to play my ball as it lies as much as I can, but the shape of the course makes this impossible for a whole round. Plus, the whole placing vs. dropping thing really bothers me as well, but I don't know what else to do.

What are people's opinions on this?

Just personally I'd do the ole "clean and place" in the fairway like you said. But in the rough, I'd probably play it where it lands unless the ground was so dry (or rocks right under the surface) that you might risk injury or damage to your clubs. In those cases I'd find the nearest point of relief and take a drop.

I might also look for another course if possible.

I feel your pain. My home course floods 1 to 3 times per year and the water from the river always leaves the course in shambles for a while. In the muck/clumps of grass we are able to play "winter rules" and move the ball to the closest grass representative area as long as we go no closer to the hole.

I play the same as you and play my ball down where I can. But if its in the river muck (which has over taken the west side of the course) there is not much one can do.

Sigh - I know.

However, the local course is the only one within 1/2 hour, and if the locals don't support it, we won't have a course anymore, period.

As to your comment on the rough - where I live the soil is very "clayey", and turns into a rock-like substance when it gets wet. For example, if I was 100 yds off the green, and wanted to take a divot out of this, I couldn't. So yes, club or player damage is a reality.

For point of relief, would this be the nearest patch of rough behind or lateral to the ball without being closer to the green?

On two holes I can think of, this could cost the player as much as 20 yards (and this is not an exaggeration).

Play the ball down or it's cheating.
The Rules do allow for casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Other than that, don't touch the ball, play it down.

Obviously the acres needed for a golf course are affordable if you buy them in a flood plain, be it in Canada or the US.

Sigh again.

Nothing makes a round more fun than sore elbows and broken clubs. Thanks Rope for the realistic and sound advice.

I swear you do this just to get a rise out of people.

In your OP you ask for "opinions".
My opinion is that there is no "winter Rules" at any time. It is cheating. Again, the Rules do allow relief from casual water and embedded ball. Those are the two lies which do require relief, so the Rules allow for it.

You are on here complaining about playing from dirt lies or hard pan ? Learn how to strike solid shots those lies and you will become a stronger player. Sore elbows and broken ribs ? Please, get real.

My advice is realistic and it is sound. Maybe in reality you are looking for sympathy and, or, other guys who condone cheating. Challenging lies are part of the game, deal with it.

From the RCGA rulebook:

25-1. Abnormal Ground Conditions
a. Interference
Interference by an abnormal ground condition occurs when
a ball lies in or touches the condition or when the condition
interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended
swing. If the player’s ball lies on the putting green, interference
also occurs if an abnormal ground condition on the putting
green intervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on
the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule stating that
interference by an abnormal ground condition with a player’s
stance is deemed not to be, of itself, interference under this
Rule.
b. Relief
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water
hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an
abnormal ground condition as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the
player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within
one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest
point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in
a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped
within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball
must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids
interference by the condition and is not in a hazard and not
on a putting green.

My question related to how to reposition the ball when it lay in an area from where the player should receive relief. Due to the area of relief being as bad as the original spot of the ball, this is unfeasible on my course. Dried clay is considered around these parts to be an abnormal ground condition, especially in the fairway.

What do you call this game you play up there in Canada ??

You neglected to post the definition of "Abnormal Ground Conditions."

Could the course make a local rule to cover abnormal grounds conditions until it returns to a more playable state? I know it's apples and oranges but when our course is wet enough that carts must remain on paths, the regular rang games and senior men's play always play lift, clean and place (cheat).

No, Frozen Rope is playing the game we know as "golf". The game you want to play is something else. It is the same reason that the US Open does NOT play preferred lies (winter rules) regardless of the course conditions (just like this year at Bethpage).

If you learn to play out of bad conditions you will be a better player for it. If you play in tournaments I can almost guarantee that you will not be playing "winter rules" no matter the course conditions.

What is your local course? I am also in MB so just curious.

Honestly if I was playing drop (not place) no closer (20 yards back is the price you pay). I definitely would not smash clubs into clay, my view of the whole cheating issue is as long as your playing partners are clear your good to go. Who else are you cheating. I am pretty sure your not just referring to the odd bare patch. Although I'm sure if you approached your club they would make a local rule to clarify everything and get around the whole cheating issue.

pga professionals never play courses like we do. imho if a ball is lying on hard pan that is like concrete take relief as you could risk injury. you get relief from a cart path don't you? yes, for that very reason.

i've played in tournaments under conditions like that and the committee has always allowed for relief as they don't want to see anyone injured.

it's common sense really.

The option for the tournament committee for this "hard ground" as you call it, is Ground Under Repair. Are you telling me that this "tournament" you played in had a local rule where a player could decide that his ball is in an unplayable lie (hard ground) and get a free drop? I'd like to know where that tournament is so I can stay clear of that one.

In a real tournament, the rules of golf are there to protect the field. What one person "deems" to be hard ground is not necessarily what someone else would call it. If they want to mark off large areas as Ground Under Repair, that is fine. But to allow an individual (with the approval of his fellow competitor) to decide something like that is total BS.

And, oh by the way, I have seen many people in tournaments, myself included, where I chose to hit the ball off of a cartpath because taking relief according to the rules would have been much worse. That is what you do when your options are worse than playing the ball as it lies.

Just curiously, do you also take this "free relief" when you ball is in tall grass, where you could hurt yourself trying to hack it out? Does that also qualify for your "common sense" ruling???

"Gee I could hurt myself if I swing too hard on this one because of the tall, thick grass... I think I am entitled to free relief..."

How about when you golf ball is lying directly behind a large tree trunk? Do you also give yourself a free drop because you could "injure yourself" by hitting the shot? Look what Tiger did at the Masters a few years back on #11. He broke his 5 iron hitting into a tree. And yes, he could have hurt himself, but that was a choice he made, he also could have punched out to the side without risk to himself or his golf club.

Your logic makes absolutely no sense. Just say you don't like playing off of hard pan lies, but please don't try to rationalize it as "common sense" because it is anything but that.

dpark, i would think you could state your opinion without being rude and sarcastic. the internet needs more civility, not less.

anyway heavy rough is part of a "normal" golf course, as is a tree trunk. if the player is concerned about sustaining an injury then he can declare an unplayable take his penalty and go from there. "concrete" in the middle of the fairway is not "normal". you go on to say you have hit the ball off cart paths before. i don't have the skill to hit that shot or off "hard pan" for that matter. as a senior i do not want to risk exacerbating wrist and elbow tendonitis injuries and will take a penalty if i deem that would be the case. in any case, i go by the rules of the committee, good, bad, or indifferent.

Just because a guy plays golf doesn't neccisarily mean he's interested in tournament golf. It may shock you but there are TONS of guys out there who play for the sheer enjoyment of the game.

A person that plays maybe 20 times a year has no business trying to hit the ball off concrete like conditions during a casual round. A "skilled golfer" (a term cetain guys love to use) may be able to cleanly pick a ball off tough lies without any risk of injury to themselves. But a novice golfer may not have that ability and could risk injury to themselves and not to mention it taking away from their enjoyment of the game (which, in my opinion, should be the most important aspect of play for an ametuer).

We've all heard the phrase "Don't try what you're about to see at home. We're professionals." Comparing Tiger taking a risk in a tournament where he's competing for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a guy playing a 30$ round of golf is absurd. Tiger was and is capable of pulling off shots like that because of his overall knowledge of his swing and how to play the shot.

Ever notice the Rules and Etiquette forum seems to attract the rudest responses?

Coldsoul, the "flooding" comment should have been the clue - I'm in Morris. Where you at?

Avatar, thank you for the comment regarding civility. It is usually Rope's lack of civility in making his point that pushes me over the edge. Comments like:


Wow, had my game insulted, was misquoted, was called a liar (even though we know you can break clubs by making contact with hard ground), had my intentions, honesty, and integrity questioned, all in a rude and condescending fashion. All in seven sentences, this from someone who doesn't even know me.

Guess the question is, if I'm a cheater with no morals or integrity, then why would I even ask for advice in the first place?

IMHO, the course was in such rough shape that the majority of it was the equivalent of "ground under repair" - I've actually seen ground under repair that was in better shape than 5 of the 9 fairways. However, roping off 2/3rds of each fairway and almost all of the rough on the entire course is simply not feasible. Ideally, the course should have stayed closed for the year, but they had to open in very, very poor shape simply to keep cash coming in for needed repairs.

Because the question was asked, as per the RCGA Rulebook:
Abnormal Ground Conditions
An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground
under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a
burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

A tip of the hat to Mr. Jones. Your understanding of the enjoyment of golf mirrors mine, and more than anything reflects the gentlemanly approach towards the most enjoyable game on Earth.

Avatar,

If the fairway were THAT hard, the golf staff should be marking those areas as GUR. Otherwise you play the ball as it lies or take an unplayable lie. In tournaments, you CANNOT unilaterally decide that a lie is entitled to relief.

With regard to your statement "i've played in tournaments under conditions like that and the committee has always allowed for relief as they don't want to see anyone injured", how did they do this? I seriously want to know.

ScottCrick,

In your original post you stated that you are playing in a league. To me, that implies some sort of competition. Perhaps I am mistaken and it is just some sort of "hit and giggle" event with some friends. But if you are playing golf where there is a "winner" then you should play by the rules and that means play the ball as it lies. Without them, it is a very slippery slope with no end. What is to keep someone else to take a more liberal approach than yours to get a preferred lie?

Again, if you are just having fun, do whatever you want. If you are playing in a league, competition, whatever, where there is a winner who gets bragging rights, you (and everyone else) needs to play by the same set of rules.

In the OPs first post, he plays in a league. To me, that implies a competition with other people. That means that you can't make up rules for you that other people don't know about or rules that are not applied equally to the field.

I do play tournament golf and I play with golf with guys who are 73 and are 20 handicaps. When we play for money, we play by the rules, plain and simple. When we are just horsing around, I don't care what anyone else does.

we played winter or jungle rules in every one of our golf meets this season.

Hi dpark,

Although this is league play, it is a fair league with relaxed competition, so we're not dealing with people calling penalty strokes on each other, etc. And really, I have never golfed with a more honest group of people - I have yet to catch anyone deliberately cheating (i.e. playing the wrong ball, losing count of their strokes, etc).

However, your point is essentially correct in that there is no consistent application of the "abnormal ground conditions" rules on the course. For example, I will play my ball from lies in the rough that others would not, mainly as I am trying to follow the spirit of the rules as closely as I can; being in the rough is supposed to make your shot harder, not easier. Others see a bad lie and do take advantage of the course (IMHO). Contrary to rumors flying around, I can hit off of hard pan or clay without breaking my club or elbow - however, I know a lot of people who can't, and I really can't fault them for moving their ball.

Although I would prefer the club to mark off all of these kill areas as GUR, as detailed above, they do not have the resources, and it would also impact player's abilities to get around the course. Therefore, we're now opening the door to the dreaded interpretation or judgement call, none of which are ever fair.

Thanks for your post, beacuse it really helped me distill the issues:
- The course has an obligation to mark GUR
- If they do not (or cannot) mark all GUR, then league administrators must define when relief will be granted, and how it is to be taken
- Anyone not complying with this now falls under the definition of "cheat"

I think this is an adequate basis for me to approach our league administrators as there will be and continue to be unfairness between players until this is done.

On a happier note, the grass has started growing gangbusters in this last week in the fairways. Last night, I was able to play every one of my fairway shots where they lied (though I did miss a few of the kill zones by only a few feet).

The rough is still a mess though - apparently because flood money is available, no grass had been planted yet, and they are going to kill off all the weeds before replanting the grass. I don't see this issue fully going away until September, if it goes away completely this year at all....

If this is league play I'd play by whatever rules the league has put in place to handle this.

If this is "personal play" then it is kind of a personal decision. A couple of points.

1) Way back in the 60's I played on a local 9 hole muni where square yards of bare dirt was very common (WAY more common than square yards of grass). We played very loose 'find some grass no closer to the hole' rules and (in retrospect) I still find this a reasonable solution. "Playing it down" on every shot would tend to force you to place a different game than would be normal - you'd end up with no wedge game (just bump/run).

2) From a handicap comittee perspective I could imagine taking an issue with players who are playing consistently in these conditions and taking some form of relief - their scores would be unreasonably low.

2) From a handicap comittee perspective I could imagine taking an issue with players who are playing consistently in these conditions and not taking some form of relief - their scores would be unreasonably high.

There is no right absolutely right answer.

dave

I have played in a number of tournaments in very wet weather where they declared lift clean and place in the fairway, a couple where lift clean and place was declared for anywhere on the course outside a hazard, and once where lift clean and place was declared in the fairway due to extremely DRY conditions where the course was in awful shape due to an extended drought. Regardless of what I do when playing a regular round, I always take full advantage of any tournament rules like that.

DaveLee -

Thanks, I think we've nailed that the league hasn't put rules into place, and just allows people to pick and place as they'd like. Really this is the essential problem, but I think I at least can go to them with a reasonable suggestion that they do set rules, and make all the players aware of what they are.

atlanta -

Nice to hear that having rules to address unfair playing conditions have been adopted by others. Like the avatar; is that a Collie pup? We have 3 of 'em.

Wow! A lot going on in this thread. Ultimately, there needs to be some intervention from the various "committees" at the course (may be the head pro in all cases). There are a few options. First, it sounds like the handicap committee should prohibit any scores being posted for handicap purposes. The course sounds like it is just too bad of shape to keep intact the rating and slope. Second, the competition committee could make a local rule for "preferred lies". Preferred lies is a power that the committee has, and is not cheating as long as it is not decided by the individual golfer. Personally, I think the optimal solution is to mark the areas as ground under repair. It sounds like they may need to load up on white spray paint, but I still think that would be the way to go.

I'm right in Winnipeg transplanted from BC for three years now. Sorry to hear that your constantly being wiped out by floods but I'm sure the major thing is still being able to get out period despite the conditions.

I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:



Kevin

If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.

Good post, Kevin. On the course I grew up on, you could adjust the words to read, "However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains, extreme heat and the lack of equipment, labor and money to do anything about them can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment." We had fairways that for years were like concrete over large areas with sparse grass, and we played winter rules year-round. When we went to a course in better condition, we played it down.

Like others said, as long as everyone agrees and plays by the same standards, then by all means find a decent lie nearby and have fun.

Ummm, did you read the question which was the title of the thread?

Kevin

For decades the USGA did not recognize "preferred lies" or "Winter Rules". However, since so many golf clubs around the country had handicap committee chairman whining and crying to them the USGA relented and added a clause to permit preferred lies if and when the local course committee deems it appropriate. This way the local clubs and their members can feel less guilty about cheating. Fortunately, the USGA has never succumbed to allow lift-clean-cheat at any of their own hosted events.

KevCarter (oops, I mean your new screen name of Kevin2),

If you had bothered to read through the thread, specifically the OP's post #24, you would have realized that this thread was about people taking inconsistent and (likely) personally advantageous "preferred lies" in a league competition because there were no clear rules regarding preferred lies. Not whether "preferred lies" exist.

Preferred lies that do not follow a clearly-defined Local Rule when in a competition, is cheating. Period.

they just said there are some spots in the fairway that s/b ground under repair circled in white paint.

What is the threads title? My post answered that question.

What is your purpose of these posts directed towards me? Have I done something to offend you? Perhaps letting me know your issues via PM would be more appropriate.

KevCarter

As I read this thread there does seem to be a few principles involved in taking relief, and these principles are too general to fit within anything that could be recognized as a ROG or a local rule. If I were playing in this league I would follow this principle as best I could. If this got 'out of hand' (by my own personal definition) then I would drop out of the league.

Note that for the case of a team competition (very common in league play) you are putting your team-mates at a competitive disadvantage if you don't do that.

dave