Here's the situation ... Was playing in a skin pot (nothing big) and also had a side bet with Player A (aka Fluffer) ...

(1) the skin pot was minimum $1 per hole (par or better) with no carry over ...
No Problem ... (out of pocket $3 to other guys in group - 5 total players) ... Cool

(2) Side Bet with Fluffer
(a) $5 - Match Play Front Nine
(b) $5 - Match Play Back Nine
© $5 - Total Score

Here lies the problems (there were a couple of others before the ones listed):

(1) 1st Incident - Hole #14, Fluffer 3rd shot lands short of green in primary rough just short of first cut on green.
He's attempting to putt the ball, and during his pre-shot routine, I noticed he took his putter and improved the lie in front of the ball
by patting the grass and then putted. ( I noted on my scored card )

(2) 2nd Incident - Hole #16, Fluffer 2nd shot out of the bunker lands in the rough ... I see him improve his lie again (Again - I noted it
on my card).

(3) 3rd Incident - Hole #17 Par 3, Fluffer tee shot lands short, he improves his lie short of the green. I called Fluffer out
(a) I Said - "What are you doing - you can't be improving your lie like that"
(b) Fluffer response - "It's in the fairway"
© My response - "It's the middle of summer - NO WINTER RULES IN EFFECT - WTF YO PROBLEM"
(d) 1 other player in the group - "He's being doing it all day"
(e) My response - "You can Fluff Deez **** - I'm not paying anything - you been cheating all day"

Results (on the scored card):
(1) He won by 1 stoke on Front Nine
(2) We were even on the Back Nine
(3) Overall he beat me by 2 strokes

As a result, he didn't want to go back an adjust those 1 stroke penalties - so I DIDN'T PAY THE $10. Overall I would have won.

What are your thoughts ????

Hopefully he learnt his lesson....nice that you called him on it. When money's involved, it's on like donkey kong.

I think you'd be ok not paying out, especially considering you have others in your foursome who stated that he was doing it all day long. Now having said that, you should evaluate your relationship with this guy. If he is a close friend or a regular playing partner, you might not want to create a fuss or burn a bridge. I play often with my uncles and some of their friends. They are all at least 20 years older than I am and play together all the time. They always have some sort of skins game going between them and I have been joining in as of late. Now, they don't play strictly by the book, ie they don't return to the original spot for a lost ball and will roll the ball in the fairway. But for their group, it's understood that is how they play and they say it's to help speed things up, which I don't really like but deal with because I love playing golf and love spending time with my uncles. But there is one guy (who thankfully hasn't been around much this year) who takes it to a different level--fluffing his lies in the rough, moving out from behind a tree, etc. And I have never said anything because I don't want to be a jerk about it, but I love it when when someone else calls him out (which my uncle does all the time).

To me, it's all about setting the rules before you start. The times I've had a bet that was more than just a little fun, I've always said something along the lines of, "Ok, so we're playing the ball down, taking stroke and distance--100% by the book. Otherwise you're out of the hole." That sends the message that no BS is allowed.

You should have called himout on it the first time you saw it....you "not paying" made you look bad reguardless.

Agreed, I would have said something the first time and let it slide but tell him if he does it again then its a penalty.

That's why I stopped betting on the course. Too many little things that will aggrevate me like the fluffer. It gets me out of my game and I start playing badly.

That said, you should have called him out when he improved his lie. That's not only a one stroke penalty, but a second (maybe thrid) stroke for playing from the wrong spot. Once you tell your playing partner that he indeed improved his lie, he should have replaced it at the original spot and played forward from there.

He got called out earlier by others in the group as well (but continued) ... so he knew ...
And NO, I'm not gonna pay into a Cheating Bet ... AT ALL

I've won $$$ and lost $$$ playing with friends - its all good

Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.

How did he beat you by two strokes if you were down by one on the front and even on the back??

Either way, good thing you called him out, but you should have done it the first time rather than mark your scorecard.

I think you are entitled to not pay, but you should have called him on it the first time you saw him improve his lie. Alot of people are used to playing like that so anytime I gamble I always try to clarify how the ball is to be played before starting. Just saying something when you agree to the bet like "So its $5 dollars a side and we're playing it down everywhere?" could clear up any confusion.

Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate. Now, I don't have a problem if a regular group decides to play OB as a lateral hazard, or play winter rules, or whatever else suits their fancy, as long as they know and play by the rules when playing in an event, or skins game, or whatever, outside of their regular game. It is everyones duty to protect the field. If you observe someone knowingly or unknowingly break a rule, it is your responsibilty to call it immediately.

I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs, however, in that instance you cannot move yourself to give yourself a better angle etc and generally it leads to just chipping out sideways which is a fair trade most times.

I agree though, that if you are playing for $, you should say something right away to avoid any confusion/anger on the 18th green.

when your putting money on a line, unless you have another agreement you play by the rules.

The courses around here had some terrible winter burn, so we agree you can move the ball a bit on the fairway, as when club tournaments are played they usually get lift clean and place.

All points are well taken ... Appreciate the feedback ... Definitely will clarify on the 1st Tee going forward ... Thx

Everyone (the other 4 players) were playing their balls where they lie. There were no
disagreements ... no questionable calls ... etc

Here's an earlier event that happened with Fluffy:
On the 5th Hole (Par 3) he pulled his tee shot into the tree lined cart path. The ball rest near
a tree. His stance was good, but the follow-thru could possibly cause him to hit a smaller tree.
He proceeds to take practice swings (no harm - no foul). Then he addresses the ball and take
a full swing and misses the ball. One of the other player and I look at each other instantly and noticed
it was a stroke. So he takes another swing, ball lands short of the green. We asked him what
was he "ly-ing". He said 2, we both said - "No - you're ly-ing 3" and he argued, but he took
the "Double Bogey"

"Cheating is not small stuff! You either play by the rules, or U R a CHEAT! Period! No debate"


I love playing for money with guys that are really uptight about the rules. Its a feeling like none other when they are counting out those greenbacks and placing them in your hand at the end of the round, after they have called you out for moving your ball an inch to the side when your in the fairway.

Try to set him up for a money game with members of a known crime family.

It's a tough one only because you didn't establish what rules you were going to play under but I wouldn't pay up either. I don't care about following the rules absolutely if you are just practising but to me, if you are competing with someone for money or for bragging rights then it's strict rules. We all know that some people have a small set of freebies (mulligans off the first/foot wedge if there's a stone under your ball/gimmies inside 5 feet) that they expect others to be happy with and if you don't nail them down then that's your fault.

Your problem is that you didn't bring it to their attention straight up. The first time it happened you needed to say something. I'm not sure that I would go straight for the jugular and say 'That's a penalty stroke, you've improved your lie' but probably something along the lines of 'Careful there mate, that's awefully close to improving your lie and I'd hate for you to get a penalty stroke'. Just marking it down is just saving up trouble for later. Once you've given the warning then feel free to stick it to them - politely of course - 'Sorry Fluffer but that's a stroke.' If they get upset, you can point out that you're well aware that they did the same thing earlier and you let them off so would they like 1 penalty stroke or 2?

I've not been in your situation but I've had a friend who used to get a little 'lazy' in the bunkers and ground his club to impriove the. One quick warning no too different from the above and no more problems.

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

Anyway, to the OP - I don't think anyone is arguing that 'Fluffer' is cheating a bit; it's just bad form to wait until the very end and declare you're not paying.

Far better to say, at the first violation: "Man, what are you doing?" Just ask genuinely. Depending on the answer, explain you don't want to play -- for MONEY -- under a different set of rules than had been agreed upon. Instead, it comes across as if you'd welched on a bet, though I agree with your reasons for being unhappy with the situation.

Any improvement at all is cheating when money is involved, those few fluffs probably saved the guy a skulled shot or two.

How can you fault the guy for not paying. Like he said the other players called him out. Even if he was having a bad day at the course, to not cheat and lose by two.......... I wouldnt pay either.

I bet this big trash talker at work 10 per hole. He walked around saying he was a scratch golfer and I knew he was far from it. I won 17 holes and guess what, not a dime from him!!! Albeit he cheated like crazy and I kept calling him out on it and I kept track of the penalties, he would have lost if he wouldnt have cheated, but he had the nerve to call me out for improper penalization, thus not paying. Needless to say that story got around at work and now the Boss actually banned him from the company outings from now on

remind me never to bet with you, if your so good why do you even need to move a ball.

like others have said it doesnt matter if you dont play by the rules, if you all agree to it prior. But when you dont and people start calling you out and you still do it.........pathetic.

There is a nig reason i dont bet among friends. Makes the round no fun

I would have to agree, about the only thing i hate in the rules of golf is one that the masses agree is a terrible rule, playing out of an unrepaired divot in the middle of the fairway. theres nothing more frusterated than crushing one down the middle and finding that half your ball is above ground because some miner didnt feel the need to repair his damage after using a backhoe for his second shot. Argh

I play with friends most of the time, and we play $2 a hole, $5 on birdies. We have set rules that you get a club heads width either way no closer to the hole, play it as it lies out of any water, sand, or if your behind a tree. That is our way of playing, Im not saying thats how everyone should play. Im just saying that if your playing with friends for change like OP stated, its not worth getting worked up about. Big money games and tournaments are different.

When someone cheats they know it and shouldn't have to be told and it's also fun to see how far they will go if they think they are getting away with it.

I guess if they play by those rules normally maybe they think everyone plays by those rules.

I think we should all assume we are playing by the standard rules of golf unless something else is specified.

Golf always reveals ones true character. Yours has been revealed. I'm just saying.

Its one thing to agree on what ever set of rules you want to play by, but to break those rules, no matter how small or insignificant you feel that may be, is just pure cheating.

Some people have stated that its not big deal and not to get worked up over a few bucks or what ever they were playing for, but for the cheater,is it that big a deal to get worked up over a few bucks that you have to cheat, works both ways

I agree with you that he should have played by the rules, but you should have had the gumption to call him on it up front, he could have take the penalty the first time, and most likely, wouldn't have done it again throughout the round. by "marking in on the scorecard" and not saying anything, it looks to me like you were forming a back up plan just in case he beat you, the better question is would you have said anything about it had you won? probably not and he would have gone on doing this in future rounds for money or in tourneys

Good comments here. I love to bet and play. I get the bet and the rules clearly set before play. If a problem like yours comes up, you have to address it RIGHT AWAY. I usually look straight ahead, or plan my shot, while saying "I KNOW you aren't improving your lie over there, because that would mean a big penalty for you." He knows I am watching and not taking any bs. That way, he knows I gave him a freebie-- but not two. It works on the cheater's psyche. A cheater will cheat for a bet of $1 or $1,000 a hole-- it doesn't matter.

Agree. The only rule we established on the course was "Hitting 2 off the First Tee" ... Other than that, play it as it lie.
The courses we play here in the Atlanta area are very good this time of year (we've had a lots of rain). The ruff is up,
the fairways are defined, the greens are good (minus the divots that players don't fix). Also, there are questionable
calls on the course that we get clarification on and we agree and move on. Again, play it as it lie.

Agree. You should've laid down the rule of the bet with fluffer as soon as you noticed it. By continuing to play knowing you wouldn't pay him when you lose just means that you're in an win-win situation. No bet is win win.

I believe you missed the point. I was not saying that that is the correct way to play according to the rules of golf. What I was saying was that in the groups I play with that is one of the agreed upon rule modifications that we play by (for better or worse), and as long as everyone is aware of it, then it is fine. However, I would never do that when playing with any other people for $ or otherwise.

As with everything, if everyone is aware of the rules before it stars, that is fair.

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

I am not saying that purposely breaking the rules, after specific rules have been layed out, is ok by any means, or should it be tolerated. If you improve your lie any at all after rules have been set you should be penalized. I was saying that if your playing with a group and a guy pulls his ball out of a divot in the fairway or something to the equivalent. Its not a big deal. One of the worst rules in golf is having to play your ball as it lies out of a divot someone has left without fixing it after gutting a ball down the fairway. But if you don't like it then let him know make him put it back and play the shot, but don't drop a penalty stroke on him or worse wait til the end of the round and then call him out.

I regularly play for money $$$. Now and again I face some questionable opponents. IMO this is more about how you and I handle money games not so much how a cheater handles them.

If your playing for money, regardless of the amount starting on the 1st hole you should be paying attention to the actions of your opponent(s). Realizing something inappropriate happened on #14 and there after is NOT good; reason what happened to you is partically your fault.

Your opponent is a cheater, fine; sounds like his friends knew that all along. You, not only don't pay attention to your opponents actions you expected him to behave differently after the fact; and when he doesn't you break a promise on paying up, nullifying the bet. Just because someone does something that is wrong, doesn't mean you can then do something wrong as well and say its right.

I play with a group of guys that notoriously bump the ball even during the summer; and they play off my ball being I am a low index. I am aware of their propensity to fudge on the rules even though I play by the rules, and pay up if I loose, because giving my word means everything to me and what I am about.

I stand on the street corner looking the other way while a 7/11 is being robbed. I then turn around and see the robber running out of the store. Do I holler STOP take the money back expecting the robber to change his colors ... or do I react by doing the right thing?

He doesn't look worse than the cheater for not wanting to pay. Why should you even pay a person 1 dollar if they cheated?

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...
There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front
of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of
the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

Everyone else in the group agreed

There are many here including myself that will feel the exact opposite than you on this one. The rules are the game are clear and fluffing does impact the shot. It makes it easier to hit the shot, control the spin ect. You want to fluff it fine, play in the old man's league at the local goat track. You want to play me for $$$ play it down, if you don't you are playing something other than golf. I understand many people don't take the game that serious and that is fine, but when you playing for $$$ you play by the rules.

How old are you? jeez. Grow up with the !!!! comments.

Sounds like you were playing with a few people who didn't necessarily care to follow the rules strictly and/or haven't played many betting rounds of golf.

If that was the case you should establish the seriousness before hand.
In any case when money is on the line, and sometimes the purpose of it, golf should be taken more seriously and therefore the rules should be more strictly applied.
In my group we play a money game every time, every rules decision is confirmed by a playing partner, regardless if that follows USGA rules (which most times it does) then that is the final decision.

Same would go for a pickup basketball game, getting a ticky tack foul when going in for a layup may not be necessary to call when it is all fun in games, but when money is on the line, or the game is serious, then a foul is a foul.

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

I understand where you're coming from and agree to an extent you shouldn't pay. My only issue would be waiting until the 17th to confront him. From an outside view it might look like you knew you were going to lose and were looking for an excuse not to pay. I think you should have given him a warning that you were going to cancel all bets if he improved his lie after he did it the first time. As far as I'm concerned anything not called on the hole it happens on is not applicable to the final score.

I play with a guy like that and I usually let him know that he's being a PU$$Y. He got the message and he's getting better. He used to take some questionable drops(such as dropping closer to the hole or on the other side of a water hazard knowing it didn't carry). All of us have been giving him the business about wearing a skirt when he plays. He eventually caught on, got sick of it and has stopped. If you had beaten him even though he was bending the rules, you would've expected him to pay. Therefore, you should pay as well. Just let him know that any bs will be penalized. It was your fault for not calling him on it the first time.

Two things in life you can't shake being labeled with....1) "Cheat" 2) "Stiff" and this thread is about both of them!

I played our member guest this past weekend, GOLF and the rules of golf should automaticly apply, Saturday 18 was a scramble so moving the ball is ok because it's a scramble (I can't guess how many they gave as gimmies on Saturday), but Sunday is best ball, the real rules apply here, play it as you find it, our group did both day, no gimmies, I see the group behind us and the one in front knocking back putts or after a putt going up and "scooping" up the putt without holing out, I was a little upset, one guy in the group in front shoots 69 with boggies on 1 & 2 (his last holes) and wins gross. I didn't say anything to the pro because the guy works in the proshop but "this ain't right" is an understatement. Heck I could shoot high 60's all the time if I take enough putts! I guess the question is "should everyone be told every time to play by the rules and no gimmies."

wow. i have to say, you are TIGHT. If you had a problem, call him out right away. a skins game lends itself to a more relaxed game. right or wrong- you didn't take your "Stance" on the situation untill you knew you were gonna lose.

in a course championship or a $ game vs a stranger, ok that is cheating.

But your friend tapping the grass with his putter- come on RELAX- the guy is technically guilty of cheating but it is no better being guilty of welching on a bet.

In the end, i know i am on the Carefree side of golf - i understand some people are purists but i think you need to realize you are the person in the minority - the VAST MAJORITY of golfers are more relaxed then you are.

guys, you are not getting a true sampling of peoples opinions on GOLFWRX .com obviously you are going to get many more golf purists on this site then there are in the general public.

Pay da man hiz money.

I wonder how many people play by ALL the rules. One that I see broken every Saturday is playing multiple brands/models of balls from the beginning to the end of the round.

Excellent point - I see the golf ball switcheroo regularly too. I bet many don't realize that's an infraction. I know a few guys that use one type of ball from the tee, then switch when hitting into the green.

I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

If the guy isnt good enough to play a ball as it lies he is not good enough to collect money from a guy that play by the rules, especially when he has to cheat numerous times just to win by 2 strokes.

It would be different if mlamar said he lost by ten, and felt that if the guy played fairly it may have been closer and he had a chance.

Forget the penalty strokes, fluffing saved the guy 4 or 5 stroke purely on drastically reducing the chance of a mishit. If i skull one across a green, I have a good chance of over compensating on the return pitch shot an hitting it fat. Do that a few times and thats 4 or 5 extra strokes.

I'm pretty sure that's only a rule at high level competitions. Pga/ us amateur type tournaments. I find it funny the people who are rules nuts who insist on playing on rules that don't exist.

15-1. General
A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground unless the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another ball, whether or not substitution is permitted (see 15-2). If a player plays a wrong ball, see Rule 15-3.

A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play.
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball,
he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule
and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.
Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when

By the way, i don't see myself as a rules nut either. I play any game I take part in by it's rules because the rules allow me to measure progress and skill. If you choose not to that's your choice; as it is for all others. But to call others rules "nuts" because we chose to play by the rules says more about those that like to fudge any chance they get in life.

The "one ball condition" is a condition of competition that needs to be declared in effect by the "committee" . Without it being in effect, you can change type of ball on the tee, but not during the play of the hole. e.g. a nice new ball to putt with.