After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

He was able to select a drop area after taking an unplayable and a penalty. As long as it's no closer to the hole in the area where the ball went out in the hay, it's legal. It was covered very closely on camera with a rules official standing over him.

You're right, Nike should have made him shoes that defy gravity so he could not step in the area at all. Seriously.... He did nothing wrong. He had what three feet of grass to walk on in the area? Nothing shady about it.

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

+1

OK, I stood 15 feet from him when it happened. He hit his tee shot into a red staked lateral hazard. As such, he located the point where the ball crossed the hazard line and marked it. He measured 2 club lengths from that point, no closer to the hole. He didn't like it so he measured two club lengths at a slightly different angle to get a better stance. The second spot was actually farther away than the first.

As long as he's no closer to the hole, he could drop at any point two club length's from the point where it crossed the hazard line.

Amen!

+2

Exactly......  I was MORE worried about his splashing the bunker with his wedge before he hit from the bunker right in front of it yesterday.

+3

Let the rules officials do their jobs. Watch the tournament, enjoy it, and stay off the phones.

oh great another one of these threads

Not against the rules anymore.

Good Lord, give me a break. Someone is always trying to say Tiger or Kenny Perry or someone cheated. There was a rules official there man. If it was illegal they wouldn't have let him do it.

Well since the "Craig Stadler improving his lie with a towel" incident there are many situations that rules officials have missed intrepretations that average Joe's have questioned. I see no reason why someone can't question, as it normally helps clarify rules for them and others. One thing I can say is that Tiger will use the rules to his utmost advantage to win (see moving rock at the Open incident), however I can't see Tiger ever conciously breaking a rule.

I felt sorry for the original poster as I new the rest of the posts would be out to unnecessarily crucify him.

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

So I guess he was supposed to float so the grass was not disturbed by his feet. Did Tiger telepathically tell Steve to trampled down some grass so he had a good place to drop the ball?

New GolfWRX.com forum unofficial rule: Sit on your couch, have a beer, enjoy watching great golfers play, and Let the PGA tour rules officials do their job!

Yet another 'Tiger can do no wrong' !!

Look, you CANNOT clean the ground where you are about to drop a ball on to - in the same way you CANNOT walk over an area to deaden grass that you are about to drop a ball onto - IT IS IMPROVING A LIE!!!

RULES MEN ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ORACLES - If Tiger walked over an area away from where he was dropping, then its no problem - BUT if he remeasures and THEN drops onto the same area he has walked - then that is at best gamesmanship and at worse - cheating !

+1

Only problem with all this second guessing is the drop that I saw didn't look to me to land in any area of grass that was trampled on. The ball hit fluffy grass, took a small bounce, and landed on more fluffy grass where he had a decent lie.....so what? Tiger was +5 on the 11th this week, what more does the field want? 10 strokes?

Yup. Sit back and watch the game. Have some faith that these guys are honest and that's the way they want to win. Just amazing how such suspicion often appear when someone is leading or won the tournament.

Stadler didn't have a rules official with him, so the rules official didn't miss anything. Besides, once a rules official okays it, it is a done deal as far as interpretation goes and a player can't later be penalized. Consequently, if the rules official was called, watched the drop and okayed it, it is a done deal.

I think some are missing my original point. He hit it in the hazard, I realize that. He gets 2 club lengths, I realize that too. But "normally" after you take your 2 club lengths, you stand behind or to the side of the 2 club lengths "area" to look for a good spot to drop. Drop it and the ball rolls into a good lie, great for you. But he did not do that. My point is then he takes two club lengths again backwards to where he was just walking around and then takes a drop, thereby giving himself a better lie. I didn't realize the rules allow you to "re-adjust" your 2 club lengths to drop where you were just standing. It may not be illegal, but it's shady.

Bravo!!!! Others have echoed your succinct comments, and add me to the list. I find these witch hunts tedious.

It amazes me how many people in this forum seem to really resent Tiger's achievements, me Im just glad that I can watch aguably the greatest competitor to have ever played this great game.
Im pretty sure that Tiger and Stevie realize that they draw more media attention then every other player at the AT&T combined, but your entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. I really couldnt see any fault with it and personally would have gone with the first drop, none of the commentators eluded to anything sinister and Im sure they would have seen a lot more rulings than most of us.

It seems like there is a thread like this every week after Tiger plays. Sad...

Yeah ... there was another one a couple of days ago about Tiger hitting the sand with his club after he hosed a shot. I mean, really, this guy has to follow the rules at levels few have to - every single shot he takes is on camera, and/or in front of a huge crowd.

I've actually done the same thing he did. Took two club lengths, stood where I'd take my stance, realized I'd be standing on uneven ground (or on a rock or something), and then measured two club lengths in a different direction. Would not even have occured to me that I was improving my lie by walking on the grass for goodness sake.

I suppose if my intention was to walk all over and try to stamp the grass down on purpose, that would be a violation (a lot of the rules of golf are as much about intent as anything) ... but good grief, think about this for a moment. The mere act of laying down the club to take two club lengths (whether its done once or twice or three times before the ball is dropped) means that almost all players measuring two club lengths are walking around within the general area they are going to end up dropping (its the only way to actually lay the club on the ground). In fact, prior to even laying the club down, it is quite common for players (all players) to walk around quite a bit in the area where the drop will eventually take place (simply to judge where their best angle is).

If what Tiger did is illegal or "shady", then pretty much the whole bloody tour is illegal and shady.

So he took a drop and got a better lie than you think he should have gotten? So what?

The rules are the same for everyone. It is a player's responsibility to know the rules and use them to play fairly. Taking advantage of what the rules are not does not hinder the game, nor does it change the playing field. The rules are the same for everyone.

Its no different than a basketball game and a foul that gets uncalled. The defensive player doesn't throw his hand up and say ooooh I took advantage of the lack of a call there I really fouled the guy!

Come on. What Tiger did was within the rules. He didn't cheat, he wasn't being shady... Any athlete who hopes/wants to be competitive has a responsibility to give themselves the best opportunities to play their best within the rules.

Didn't they all have to play the 11th hole? What does the fact that Tiger was +5 on 11 have to do with anything?

Tiger was a good 30-40 seconds behind Williams getting to the ball. Williams talked to the officials who were there and determined that Tiger's ball was unplayable. Williams moved to the area where the ball last crossed the hazard, sat the bag down, and stood there waiting for Tiger to arrive. During the next few minutes, Williams moved himself and the bag back several steps giving Tiger more room to drop the ball. Tiger marked his 2 club length relief in front of the area where Williams had previously been standing and continued looking around on the ground. He then looked at the area where Williams had been standing and repositioned his 2 club length relief. He then dropped in the area where Williams had been standing.

Alot of folks are seemingly getting into intent while discussing this. I am not. To do that would be impossible.

Tiger Woods has always been a great example of how one should play golf (his expletives excluded) and I would in no way ever question his honor in trying to do the right thing. He is far too talented to worry about a little bit of grass being around his ball when he dropped it. I am only saying what happened. The area around the relief position was very narrow with the bunker being so close to the hazard. To me it was sloppy of Williams to get so close to the area where Tiger was needing to take relief.

Perfectly legal, did get a nice lie out of it

Obviously doesn't have anything to do with the drop. Yeah ... the whole field has to play the 11th. Also, the whole field (and their caddies, and even sometimes rules officials themselves) - when it has to take a drop - commonly walks around on the grass where the ball will ultimately be dropped. Not for any ill intentions, but merely to scope the shot. Point is ... somehow when Tiger does what everyone else on tour commonly does, it is looked at in this ridiculously minute detail, becomes "illegal" at worst (even though it is done in front of a rules official), or "shady" at best.

So while not strictly relevent, I certainly understand the sentiment of "good grief, what do people want?".

Really ... I believe we need a seperate rule for Tiger. He should be required to carry a long piece of string that is precisely two driver lengths in his bag, along with some powedered chalk. Should he need to get relief, any spectators and any officials or caddies must stay at least 20 feet away from where the drop might take place. When Tiger arrives at the location, he should then tie one end of the string to a tee, that he places in the ground at the point where the ball crossed a hazard. He should then stretch the string to its full length, and, being careful to stay outside of the circumference, move in a circle described by the string, laying down a chalk line as he goes (but making certain the chalk never moves to a place any closer to the hole) ... describing the entire area in which it would be legal to drop. Then, making certain to stand outside of that marked area, he should stretch his hand over the area and take the drop.

Good news. They will. Just wait for The Hill Valley Invitational.

Click to view attachment

And there would still be people who would resent that he would be the only pro to do it that way.

IMO, all of the people calling up the networks to call alleged rules violations on PGA or LPGA Tour competitors are doing so to inject themselves in the contest. Also IMO, the networks should have a policy of refusing to take such calls.

You may not have any idea just how difficult it is to become a USGA rules official. I know someone who is quite intelligent, but she has taken the test and failed at least five times. The Rules of Golf (and, especially, the Decisions addendum) are so convoluted that most people I know of wouldn't pass the exam.

Stevie was just looking for a place to put down his bib.

Its not shady, there is nothing against what happened. They walked through that area to get to the ball like any and everyone else would have. I suppose when you hit a ball into the hazard you make sure to make a really big circle around the area you will be dropping in huh? What if Tiger would have been in a situation where he would have taken the point where the ball crossed the hazard and went back 15 or 20 yards after he and Stevie just walked through there? I guess he would have been cheating then as well. Someone is ALWAYS wanting to call cheat on another like they have just caught them. Good for you!

Unless they changed the rules, I'm pretty sure you can remove loose impediments from the area you are about to drop into before dropping. I don't know if this is what you meant by "clean the ground".

Also I haven't seen what happened, but I don't think there is anything wrong with remeasuring your two club lengths. As far as if he trampled the grass and improved the area, I'm pretty sure almost all the guys out there use little tricks like this that the rules don't prevent, plus you are always going to try and drop into the best lie that you can.

Stevie Williams aka "The enforcer" would never do anything in the way of gamesmanship to help out his boss.

Beware those who criticize "The Tiger" for the wrath of this board will come down on you.

fishing much? your retarded

you could not be anymore wrong!

See rule 13 (2) and look at the Decisions .... taking a drop you cannot touch a damn thing - EVEN THE PLUG MARK YOUR BALL LEFT IMPRINTED when you get a free drop for embedded ball!!

Sand, mud etc must be left alone.. this rule has, as far as i remember, been in force.

This is why the original poster has some essence of truth in his post - if the 'dropping' ground was altered or improved prior to a drop, then it IS a penalty.... and I dont really care that Rules guy was there they are not always right...

THANK YOU! SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE TO END THIS BS.

At least somebody got the point.

What are the tiger haters looking for? A DQ?

I read the rule and it says nothing about removing loose impediments. You CAN remove loose impediments from the area you are about to drop into. What it says you can't do is improve any immovable or fixed impediments, or fix any turf conditions, but nothing about loose impediments. If Tiger were to remove leaves and other loose things on the ground prior to dropping, no penalty. Pressing down turf where a drop is about to occur is against the rules, but there is no way to prove this was Tiger's intent no matter how it looks. The player gets the benefit of the doubt in this case, I believe. If there was a rules official there watching I see no way you can have any problem with the situation.

You can move loose impediments, that much I am sure off. And to answer an earlier post, the issue was not Stevie, or the rules official or even Tiger walking to where the ball was and stepping on the grass. It was after he took 2 club lengths, he walked around looking for a place to drop the ball. He then takes 2 clubs again so he can drop where he was just walking around and matting down the grass. That was the issue. And the emotional responses to this thread trying to defend someone you have never met and will never meet suprises me. This was never about Tiger (I have met Tiger a few times and he seems like a decent guy). I would have put this out there regardless of who it was, AK, Camille, etc.. Mods you can close this thread.

+1, it would have been against the rules to conciously step behind the ball to improve the lie, as many do on the tee box. I am not sure walking around an area constitutes a strong case but I do understand someone questioning it. However if there was a rules official already onsite he should have instructed all to stay off the area if that would be an infraction.

Gosh, never been called a "Tiger Hater" before. What exactly does one have to do to be classified as one? Just question something that happened during the course of a tournament? Man, the venom.

I'm actually a big fan of Tiger. He's arguably the greatest golfer of all time and conducts himself with class, both on and off the course. The issue here is a valid one. Did the ground on which Tiger made his drop become improved as a result of his caddie standing in the same area? I don't understand all the name calling (ie. retarded, etc.) by some on here.

The rules of golf as they apply here are very specific. See Rule 13-2 on the USGA website. To paraphrase it states that the player should not improve or allow to be improved the lie of the ball or the area of his intended stance or swing or the area in which he is to drop or place his ball by moving, bending, or breaking anything growing.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about a player's "intentions."

I could cut/paste it but the USGA is specific that should not be done.

RULE 13 (2)
IMPROVING LIE; AREA OF INTENDED SWING


A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard –


I am of course assuming that the Rules of Golf are Universal and there are no glaring differences from the Rand A in Scotland and the PGA's American version? - if not, then this is th e Rule as it stands.

You take a drop and no marks can be repaired; divots done; sand brushed; pine cones thrown etc etc - you play the drop as nature intended when you arrived at the ball!

I am not sure how this rule reads exactly. I guess maybe you can't move anything before the drop but you CAN move anything that isn't FIXED after the drop just as you can any other time in the fairway, rough, woods, etc.

It is inexperienced players or poorly skilled players who criticize questioning of a ruling.
As you point out, on course rules officials often times make errors. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning a ruling, whether it be a player, or on course spectator, or t.v. viewer, or internet forum participant. In fact it is expected and encouraged .
The OP brings up an excellent point, which is did Tiger improve his lie by walking all over his intended drop area.
I believe the answer is no. He looked at his original two club marking, did not like the line of play, then repeated his two club length marking with a new line of play. It is within the rules to do this , over and over if the player chooses, up until the point when the ball is dropped.
However it is illegal to intentionally try to improve the lie conditions of the ground for a forthcoming penalty drop, and this is the question raised by the OP. I did not see Tiger walk all over his drop area, but the question is a good one .

This is the point of the Rule which Stewart Cink violated at Harbour Town a few years back. Cink broke the Rule and PGA Tour official Slugger White covered it up. White should have been fired the Monday following that event, but he continues to be employed as Rules official. Truly disgraceful.
As for Cink, he should have done the right thing and penalized himself following his "playoff victory" video review of the incident. Sadly, Cink did not have the courage to do the right thing and he must live with the shame of his decision for the rest of his life.