Just had our club championship over the weekend and, of course, there was plenty of controversy. We have a few members who are notorious sandbaggers, but one in particular is a big problem. He has won his flight (typically one of the higher flights, this year 4th of 6 flights) something like 5 out of the last 6 years. This year, he shot under his handicap all three days. Using the odds chart in the USGA Handbook, he should be playing the lotto.

So, I'm curious if others have had experience with this. This is an old-school, private club with a ton of history.

My initial thought was to just make all our club tournaments "invitationals" and not invite these folks to play anymore. Of course, that opens up a ton of other problems.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Bandits are always a problem.

Force all prospective players to play three rounds w/ at least one other member.

Are they using the hdcp. system correctly? As in not posting
scores over double bogey, etc.. We had a problem with one
guy only posting his worst scores, so just before the last day
of posting before turn in time, I went to his record and posted an 11
for him. The computer can't tell that you can't shoot that and taking
your best five and worst five and averageing them his hdcp. went
from a 15 to an 8. When he complained we brought it to his attention that he
needed to post all scores and he got the message and lived with that 8 for awhile.

One possible way the club could combat this is to make sure that a score is posted each time an individual plays a round. It would take some clerical work, but if someone is signed up and plays a round of golf, and does not turn in a scorecard for posting, club policy could be to post a 72 for that player for that round. This would discourage members from not turning in their better scores.

Of course it might pi@# them off also.

At my club, most of the members respect the hdcp system and are religious about doing it the right way. However, we have had a problem like yours the last year or two with several individuals...we now have a hdcp committee that reviews and looks into suspect scores and postings.

May seem like too much work, but its not really. Just the presence of this entity has a tendency to take care of those who wish to "fudge" their scores.

So far this year we have had no problems.

This sounds like an excellent solution!

There is something along the lines that says you can learn more about a person from playing 18 holes of golf with them than from knowing/working with them for years.

As for your problem, the only answer is a pro with a backbone. Go to him -- with the force of a large group of unhappy members/players if needed. Demand that his shop police handicaps or that you will boycott tournaments.

You are never going to stop the sandbagging or cheating. One thing our course does in the Club Championship is reward a two tier champion as I'm sure many others do.
We reward with a large trophy the person that shots the lowest actual or gross score. We then award a medaillon to the people that have the lowest adjusted (by index) scores in three flights. Simply speaking, we have two champions in mens, senors, and womens. Most view the guy person with the lowest actual accumulative three day scores in each group as the true champions.

Offbeat, but...

under-handicap scores only count for non-winners of previous tournaments

anonymous peer-handicaping for previous, recent or multiple winners - median h/c number assigned

We do a few things-
1. Have a handicap committee
2. Penalty scores are imposed for not posting scores and they are penalty scores - myhandicap is +2 and one day went out to practice and hit a few balls all over the course. Didnt post ( nothing to post ) and got a penalty score of 67 attached.
3. In important tournaments, each day the handicap is adjusted by the round shot if below handicap ( there is a formulation for this but not sure what it is ) It is used heavily during our member guest

But nothing is stopping a player from handing in a card with a higher score/hole....or doing the old score sabotage at the end of the round to "keep their cap up."

If you are only concerned about tournament play....you can establish a "tournament handicap" for each player.

Like above, form a handicap committee

Since its a 3 day tournament, and like above, handicap adjustments are needed.
Sure someone can shoot under their handicap one day, but 2\3 days is not really likely.

But you will never stop the sandbagging. Just something you'll have to deal with.

This one seems quite obvious if one in question has won it 5 out the last 6 years and shot under handi each day.
That right there is terms for penalties, dq, etc...
Lots of times you'll see if one is suspect of sandbagging, they will be dealt with (<--- not sure what dealt with means, maybe like "Color of Money"

That's what my club does. We use the lower index for each player. If their Tournament scores reflect a lower index than their rounds posted index then we use tournament index, or vice-versa.

Similar to above- name somebody as the Handicap Chairperson, and include your head pro and another senior club member that serves on a board to form a committee. Then modify the egregious sandbagger's index down under the GHIN rules for your local golf association. I doubt that sandbagger's skin will be thick enough to stand a scarlet letter "M" (for Modified) on his handicap card, and the fact that everyone at the club will know he is a cheater.

We flight our tourney after two rounds. So if you are playing well for two days you are flighted with the people who have been playing the same way you are. Also we have a handicap committee that monitors your tourney results. They will demote you 1 or 2 shots if you win two or three times.

Also we have a parking lot committee. If you win several low net tourney's then people are happy to escort you to your car and then relieve you of your pride.

www.popeofslope.com

Look up Tournament Point System

Other things you can do: Use the lowest index of the person from the last 12 month (The Golf Assoc of MI does this in their net tournies).

It won't cure all sandbagging, but will cure anyone from artificially inflating their handicap right before a tournament.

I prefer the Australian Handicap System.

It does not use an average score for 10 rounds or so. Scorecards can only be posted in competition play. No social scores can be used for handicap purposes. The course has a CCR (Calcualted Course Rating) that is the rounded up nett score for the 20 percentile card of the field for the day. Eg., 100 competitors, the 20th place recorded a nett score of 74, rating for the day is 74. There are other factors enabling a minimum and maximum range of this CCR.

Handicaps are not indexes and do not need to be adjusted based upon the course you play. Your handicap for example of 1.4 means you play to a 2 everywhere!

When you play over your handicap, it blows out 0.1 of a shot (and no shots at all if you are within net 1-4 shots for your handicap for mid-range golfers). So if you are off 10, the rating is 72 and if you have a nett 77 or even a nett 97, you only blow out 0.1.

Good luck with the USGA implementing a simple handicap system. The current form is too convoluted for something that cannot truly be measured accurately and essentially should only be used as a tool enabling players of different skill levels to enjoy a game with some form of competition.

http://admin.golfaustralia.org.au/site/_co...7423-source.pdf

Not an issue at our club. 36 holes qualifying, gross only followed by matchplay rounds off level for the top 16. Hcp is irrelevant.

Another thread discussed the differences between the English and USGA handicap systems. Here is an excerpt from one of my posts:

OK, to promote the dissemination of definitive information about handicaps in general and the English vs. US systems in particular, here are two articles written by Dean Knuth (aka, the "Pope of Slope") who developed the USGA handicap and course rating system (also used in many countries around the world):

(1) Comparing USGA with British handicaps - http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html
(2) Politics in British Course Rating - http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/politi...british%20.html

It seems the Australian system is similar or the same as the English and shares the same deficiencies, in Knuth's opinion. As far as the USGA handicap system "...essentially should only be used as a tool enabling players of different skill levels to enjoy a game with some form of competition", isn't that exactly the purpose of a handicap system? And the handicap system is not only supposed to function for players of different ability (with handicaps established at different courses difficulty), but for competitions of different format, duration, tees, genders, etc. Simpler does not necessary mean "better".

Here are many of Knuth's stories and comments about sandbagging: http://popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

The thing about the USGA handicap system is that it requires a Handicap Committee. Whether it or the golf association or the members have the, um, guts to monitor and take action is the real quesion. The tools to limit sandbagging exist if someone really wants to use them.

My club insists you play in a minimum of 5 competitions throughout the year before you can enter the club championship. This is obviously to ensure the chances of a bandit winning are minimised. Of course, it's not fool proof but pretty effective I think.

I say sandbaggers get the William Wallace treatment from the end of Braveheart.

Too much?

I have seen in my experiences, that sandbaggers hang close together, since no one else will play with or be seen with a blatent cheater

I was always taught that this game is about integrity and a game that reveals ones character.....

But I also notice when you pull out you 9mm out of your bag, they can suddenly remember a couple of scores they forgot to post prior to the tournament.....lol (just kidding)

Who cares if he won the second to last flight. If you are a serious golfer it's only the hacks down there anyways.

A very classy post. Well done. May you never get old or lose your stellar swing and become a "hack".

From first hand experience the problem you have is that the worst cheaters are often the most prominent members of the club. So many of these solutions are great on paper, but when you try to apply them it falls apart.

I think the 20 round lookback isn't enough. Some people play 20 rounds a month. I think looking at the last 40 round and using the best 10 is the way to go. That mean you would have to bag a LOT of rounds in order to change your handicap. Who's wants to keep playing bad golf on purpose???

If I did that, my index would stay exactly the same. I'd swap 1 score that was 1 stroke lower, but it didn't change the index.

Also, you have to play a certain amount of rounds with members from the club AT the club. Hard to "police your own" if you are not playing with members from the club.

One major form of sandbagging is the exploitation of equitable stroke control by
those with double digit handicaps or higher. The system allows them to take a "7"
as a max score on any hole. This can really be abused on par 3s.

My observation is that certain intending players keep their handicaps
inflated by tanking a few of the par 3 holes (taking quads) without anyone
being able to prove it. If they are skilled and clever enough, they can do
this and at the same time beat the daylights out of their opponents in common match play.
(Remember, since their HC is likely inflated to begin with, they will hold
the advantage through the golf course.)

Adding to the ease in which this can be done is the fact that most club
players tend to play match play, and often a better ball of four format.
This gives those so inclined an even greater opportunity to sandbag; they
can "commence the tanking" if the outcome of the hole appears to be
determined already. Remember, they are not concerned about posting a low gross score,
just winning their match. Not a bad deal when you can win your match and keep
your handicap up at the same time. When tournament time comes they have "the edge."

This is very tough to prove because these players post every round.

This is pretty much the way I've seen it done in several tournaments I've played in. The only other way I have seen it succeed is to evalute scores after 1 or 2 rounds....if they are way off base according to hdcp, then those players need to be dq'd. No one likes to play when you have a 15 hdcp beat his hdcp by 8 strokes.........
I once played in a tournament were a guy came in as a 18 hdcp and shot an 81 gross.

Only count tournament scores. Even if the sample size is small, it should sefl correct quickly.

I could be wrong, but every single club I've been a member of only has ONE club champion, and that is the player with the lowest GROSS score.

Everything else is flighted according to handicap, and there are "flight winners".
So if you are playing in the 3rd flight...it doesn't matter how low you shoot, you are only competing against the 3rd flight players.

Only the first and championship flights are eligible to be club champ because those are the only groups teeing off from 7000 yards.

My solution has me very much at peace.
I refuse to make a "donation" to golfers that cheat.
I no longer enter tournament play, and for each upcoming tournament I let the club know that it is due to rampant sandbagging. In my opinion, incorrect score entry in the over 5 hdcp is at pandemic level.
Again this past weekend I looked at the scores posted at my home club for an open tourney (which only attracted about 45 players even though District points were available for gross scores) and I saw no less than 8 players shoot 8 under net for 18 holes. Does anyone else see a problem here?

I realize I am in the minority here. However, if enough people would engage in a like protest, then in 18 months the club system would have no choice but to properly address the problem due to lost revenue.
From what I see the average individual stroke play tournament entry level at area courses (200 mile radius) is down considerably from 10 years ago.

Thanks for all the replies as there are definitely some good ideas here. We do have a handicap committee, but I think it needs to be more effective. At this point, the only real decisions made by that committee dealt with the recent re-handicapping of our course after a remodel.

I like the idea of having a qualifying round or two, then flighting from there. Of course, it's not perfect either as I know we had a player this weekend lose his swing for two rounds, post two really high scores in the mid 90's, then follow it up with a score around 80 (which is closer to his normal scores, if not a bit below).

I've heard of one local club that has a handicap committee that is supposed to be secretive, but since I know who two members of that committee are and I'm not even a member there, I question it's abilities.

Someone described players that post every round, but lay-off strokes alot of the time. Those are the types of guys that are our biggest problem. The types who might turn some bogies into triples when they're out of a bet. Or "miss" some 4 footers when their partner has them covered. You know the type.

The argument that flight winners don't matter isn't valid on several levels. For one, even a 25 handicapper wants to win and the great thing about handicaps is that people can compete against guys of similar skill levels. As someone who has been everything from a 25 down to an 8 handicap, I know I liked the competitions at all levels. At the same time, I know a guy I'd consider a sandbagger who has a 0 handicap, but probably plays to a +3 or better. It can happen at all levels.

Also, we use our club championship as qualifying for some inter-club matches later in the year. Making this team is a pretty big deal as we have matches with some pretty well known clubs. Having been on one of those trips, I can tell you that it is a big motivating factor.

We have both a medal and match play championship. The medal was this past weekend and the match play will be later this summer. The flight winners of each tournament make the travelling squad for the inter-clubs.

With that in mind, I just wanted to make some suggestions to our handicap committee for possible solutions to our problems. Again, thank you all that offered opinions. Some good ideas here certainly.

That's what I see as well. At our course, we have a pretty high slope rating (139) and a very high course rating (75.2 with a par of 70). Even from the mid tees, we're at 72.0 with a slope of 133. That means someone shooting under their handicap for 3 rounds has really pulled off an amazing feat.

It's also funny to me that it tends to be the group with handicaps 12 and above that have the most issues, though I've seen it with lower handicaps as well. In several cases, the people I typically hear complain the most could possibly be upset they got out-cheated rather than cheated. I know I had that feeling a couple of times yesterday while enjoying my post-round beers.

Of course, there's always the old saying that it's much "better to be the one being complained about than the one complaining" (cleaned that up some for this family forum). I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

As a new tournament player I really have been discouraged by all the people complaining of sandbaggers as it seems to me people are all too willing to say sandbagger as if it is a general excuse of why they played bad. The people on the hdcp committee need to keep their comments to themselves and not let every little complaint be common knowledge about who they are looking into for possible sandbagging.

Don't get me wrong I know some people's handicaps do not really reflect their true ability and some people may or may not have created this on purpose. I just think that we as golfers need to be careful not to wrongly accuse others of sandbagging.

The hdcp committee needs to be smart enought to figure out who is sandbagging and who isn't. I think they should look at all the scores in each flight, but I think anything discussed in the committee should stay in the committee unless they are very confident about a violation. If a golfers handicap is questioned and it is determined there is nothing wrong then I also feel everyone should be informed and not just dropped allowing everyone in the clubhouse to continue thinking they are a cheat. I truly believe in INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN QUILTY not when some sore losser gets beat.

I also think that everyone boycotting the tournaments as a point will do nothing for good for golf, its like the kid in grade school that gets mad and takes his football home cuz he got tackled and ruins the game for everyone.

This is the first time I've heard of "interclub" competition with flights.
At our course (and course I've played at before) the interclub squad is a collection of the "best" golfers at the course and they play the "best" golfers at the other courses.

We determine our interclub team by placement in the previous year's club championship (top 3 low gross are excempt from qualifiying for the following year) and via a 2 day qualifier, where the rest of the team is selected from (top low gross scores until team is made).

Wouldn't rewarding "flight winners" a spot of the interclub team just make sandbagging more prevelant?
E.g. Bob is really a 2 but "manages his cap so that his cap is 8" then cleans up during the flight competition ensureing a spot of the squad.....where he then goes undefeated because he mops the floor against the other teams "8" cap?

But then again this whole discussion about sandbagging re-enforces why I ONLY compete in gross score competitions.

Thats awful,your club has no respect for the handicap system and lesser golfers and I find that reprehensible.

The handicap system is there to allow all golfers to compete and not allowing the high handicappers to participate is not a job of a golf club in my opinion. Having flighted tourneys are fine but the club must acknowledge every ones achievements and not just brand them as cheaters or second hand citizens.

We have three flights in our golf course,Championship flight, A flight and a B flight.Championship flight is all gross and everyone can participate in it.The A flight is from 0-14 and B is everything above that;its match-play after 36 holes of qualifying.

But we acknowledge ALL of our Champions and not just the pros's son or the local collage kid who shoots a 70 in his sleep because he hits it 325 and coming in with a half a PW on par 4s or a 7 iron to all the par 5s.

I am the prez of our Thursday night Menes league and ever since I took over we changed to "league only handicaps".In another words,we only keep your handicap based on what you shoot in the league.We dont care how you do on Fridays playing with your wife.

I am a true believer that every club should keep Tournament Only Handicaps.And not because I think some players necessarily cheat,but some people perform better and focus more when they are playing for something of importance then they are playing Friday afternoons with their wives.The reverse is also true,there are alot of people that dont play as well in a tourney as they do playing with their wives.

As I told everyone in our league,I dont care how you do anytime else,I am only concern with what you shoot in the league.

By the way,you would be surprised how many people went from being A and B players,to C or D divisions after they were rated by how they performed in the league.

We police our own also by maintaining our own point quotas based off of the Stableford scoring system for our regular "group" play. Like you, what a player shoots playing with his wife on Tuesday afternoon has no bearing. We average 5 of each player's 10 most recent Stableford scores to come up with the quota. It gets adjusted every week on Monday. If a player goes out and gives up (tanking their score) it gets adjusted to 80% of their current quota. This is our sandbagger protection clause.

The Stableford system works well to indicate a player's true ability because it measures their point production, with a value of zero for anything greater than a double bogie. There is no sandbagging benefit to the player for making big numbers.

What's interesting is that some players in our group have USGA handicaps of 13 or 14 but have quotas in our group of 26 points. This would be more reflective of a 10 handicap. I attribute this to the flaws (and easy manipulation) of equitable stroke control in the USGA system.

e.g. A 9 handicap and a 10 handicap could both go out and score 26 Stableford points but post entirely different scores. In an otherwise identical round the 9 handicap would have to post a 10 over par 81, (our course is par 71), and the 10 handicap would be able to post 91 due to ESC. (This is assuming both players made 7 on all 5 par 3s and par on every other hole.) (ESC allows the 10 HC or higher take a 7 on any hole.)

We have both a gross and a net team when we play interclub tournaments. That's pretty common at most clubs I'm aware of.

Our flights basically broke down this way:

Gross
5-8 Handicaps
9-12
13-15
16-18
18+

One thing I don't like that we do is that you get strokes within your flight based on the lowest handicap. So a 12 is getting 3 strokes per day on a 9.

One thing I've thought would be a good idea is that any person that wins their flight would automatically have to move up a flight the next year, regardless of their handicap. Also, make everyone play gross within the flight. It would definitely make it tough for someone to win every year.

I would love to be able to play in the championship or gross flight. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work to get my game to that level and even if I did, I don't think I have the talent. The majority of the guys who finish well in our gross flight played college golf at the least and a few were pro's of different levels at some point in their lives.

I would love to be able to play in the championship or gross flight. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work to get my game to that level and even if I did, I don't think I have the talent. The majority of the guys who finish well in our gross flight played college golf at the least and a few were pro's of different levels at some point in their lives.
[/quote]

And thats why at Club Championships you must recognize all the winners in each flight and not just the Gross players who play the course at 7000 yards as the other post had mentioned.
Stafford point system does work very well and with all due respect to Dean Knuth ( the inventor of the handicap system for usga),I dont think he could have calculated in his formula that some people are less then honest.

My club uses only gross scores for 36 holes, then flights competitors based on those scores. All scores for all rounds are Gross. The only way to sandbag in this manner is to purposely play poorly to get into a lower flight, and in the past the pro has placed a good player (A Known 5) who shot an 85, into the second flight where he ends up down by 10 shots to start the day... so much for trying to sandbag. It's nice having a pro with a back bone

We do recognize all flight winners...but you can't expect to have the 15 caps playing a par 71 from 7000 yards can you? How fun would that be for them....and to add HOW can you crown a "club champ" when somebody gets to play from a closer set of tees....
To add, what is the point of flighting if you allow somebody from the 3rd flight to "win" the second flight?

From my understanding, NO higher capper has complained that they do not get to play from 7000 yards.... and NO higher capper has suggested that our club champ be crowned by net score either....

Club champs are for the lowest total gross score over multiple days and played from the championship tees....I don't see what the problem is with that system?

This is really the answer. If the head pro has enough folks behind him (and any good one will), just about anything can be dealt with properly...specifically sandbagging and pace of play.

We do recognize all flight winners...but you can't expect to have the 15 caps playing a par 71 from 7000 yards can you? How fun would that be for them....and to add HOW can you crown a "club champ" when somebody gets to play from a closer set of tees....
To add, what is the point of flighting if you allow somebody from the 3rd flight to "win" the second flight?

From my understanding, NO higher capper has complained that they do not get to play from 7000 yards.... and NO higher capper has suggested that our club champ be crowned by net score either....

Club champs are for the lowest total gross score over multiple days and played from the championship tees....I don't see what the problem is with that system?
[/quote]


Not for a second did I say that mid to high handicappers should play from the 7000 yrd tees.I am actually against all these ridiculously difficult golf courses.I think they are damaging the game by turning people off to golf, but that's an argument for another day.What I am saying is simply this,most of us are just armatures and the handicap system is there for our enjoyment.Strokes are there so ever one can compete and not sit on the side lines when the big boys play.

At our golf course we have 3 flights as I had already mentioned in a earlier post and how they break down.So on the wall we have a plaque that credits all the winners:

In the Championship flight the winner is so and so

In the A flight the winner is so and so.

In the B flight is so and so

They all get the plaque and are recognized for their achievement.Of course the guy who wins the gross is recognized as the big fish but be honest with you,at our course,the guy who has won it 4 out of 5 years is so long that he is really playing to a par 68 right of the bat.We have 2 par 5s that are over 550 yards and he hits no more then a 5 iron on his second shot.

I think the other 2 divisions have it tough.Its usually is a tough battle that goes to 20,21st hole (again its match play after 36 hole qualifying).

Now you want to tell me that they dont deserve anything because they werent born with a club in their hands or after working 50 hours providing for their families, they dont have any time to practice.

WHERE did I mention "Flight winners should not be recognized?".....perhaps I missed that point in my own posts?

I SAID that we DO recognize flight winners....but 2nd, 3rd, etc. flight players aren't eligible for the big prize because they are playing from closer tees. To add, sandbagging isn't as prevelent because you are ONLY competing vs your flight. Some other posters mentioned "low net" champion...which in my opinion just opens the floodgates for sandbagging. Winning the all round "low net" is much more prestigious than winning the "3rd flight."

YOU are the one that said the following about our club.


Yet here is what I actually posted.


Again I still don't wee where the problem is.
I suppose it would be nice to include the 2nd and 3rd flights eligible for the big prize...but it's be stupid to ask them to tee off from 7000 yards. And lets be honest, how many 8+cappers do you know that can go out and shoot multiple sub par rounds from 7000 yards in tournament conditions? So it's really a non issue.
Perhaps our club is different than most as we have A LOT of VERY low cappers at our course. I guess easily 40 players that are sub 4 caps. With a number in the +3 to 1 range.

Perhaps our club is different than most as we have A LOT of VERY low cappers at our course. I guess easily 40 players that are sub 4 caps. With a number in the +3 to 1 range.
[/quote]

Lets agree to disagree,we can argue this point til the cows come home.

I am impressed that you guys have 40 players that are between +3 to 1 that participate in majority of tournaments.

As far as what the original post goes and getting rid of the sandbaggers,its a mute point and you will never get rid of them.I bet there were baggers 800 years ago in Scotland and there will be baggers in Scottland and every where else 800 years from now.
Why do you think the book on the rules of golf is thicker then the bible?