Yesterday, for the first time ever, I hit a guys house along the fairway after I made one of the worse shanks in my life. I'm still wondering how I hit it that far right and so high and long. The most embarrassing part is that the older gentleman (home owner) was on his deck with about 6 other people. As I saw the ball flying toward his house I yelled "fore!" several times. Then thwack, a real loud solid hit to back side of his house and the ball bounced back toward the rough, but was still OB. Fortunately no one was close to being hit and I didn't break a window. The gentleman came down off his deck, found the ball in his yard and threw it back on the course. I sheepishly came toward him and expressed that I was very sorry and that I was not sure how I could hit it that badly. He responded "you better be" and he made a series of other comments about how I should be hitting the ball. I responded back that I yelled "fore" several times and I said I'm sorry, and that I can't do much more. I was tempted to ask him if he played golf and if he was so good that he never hit OB, but why bother, so I walked away.

At any rate it got me thinking about liability. If my ball had broken a window or caused other damage, does a golfer have any type of liability? Or is living on a golf course an assumed risk and you live there at your own risk?

I'd be interested in others thoughts or experiences with this kind of thing.

Thanks

Andy,

Good question, once a month I play with my Father in Law at a course that is very tight and has houses down the right side on two pretty long holes. The requirement is that if you are heading towards the houses you yell FORE. Everybody who plays the course at one time or another has shanked a ball towards the houses. The course makes it pretty clear (via signs) that the golfer are not allowed into the "backyards" to retrieve a lost golf ball unless invited. To me that is fair and repsectful, as many times I have seen my ball 10-20 feet into someone yard and had to take a drop and loss ball penalty.

I have often wondered the same questions as yourself, what is the liability of the golfer if damage or injury occurs as a result of a poor shot. Speaking from a "logical man approach" (which may not be in line with the law) I think if they choose to live on a Golf Course then they should accept the fact that something may become broken or damaged. I am sure their insurance company charges them a premium for living along a course. Bottom line is that it is their choice to live along a golf course and need to accept the risk....how would it be different if you lived along the Gulf Coast in Hurricane alley?

Certainly if I came close to injuring someone I would act as you had and be apologetic, but would expect some sort of respect in return. No body intentionally tries to hit OOB with houses, and in most case we are overly conservative. When playing with my Father in Law, I always y club down one or two clubs when going at a green that has a house behind the green. I would rather end up short than sailing the green and hitting the house.

From your story, I applaud you for walking away from the situation. In my opinion the gentleman was in the wrong and should have been more respectful and understand that it was an accident and these are the risk associated with living next to a golf course.

i am sure there are WRX'er that live along a course and can provide insight.

Erik

I'm pretty sure that any damage or injury would be covered under the liability portion of your home-owner's insurance policy

Here in Oklahoma they have signs posted on the courses I've played stating: Golfers you are responsible for any errant shots, your homeowners insurance will pay theirs will not. This is the biggest factor in me no longer playing any tight house lined courses. I know if I chose to live on a course I would expect to have an insurance policy to protect me from the risk of damage that might occur from my choice to live in the line of fire.

I wouldn't be so sure. It's much better to get a separate liabilty insurance specifically for golf and also to protect your equipment at the same time. For the small cost outlay, it is peace of mind should the worst happen. And believe me it can. Any damage or injury that is directly the result of a golfers actions is his/hers liabilty, it's that simple.

Insurance companies charge home owners that live on a golf course a higher premium. For the reason they live on a golf course. Its built into the home owners policy, so even if u think it's not there it is.

By law in America you can post your property "no trespassing". It has to be posted in the local paper, and registered with the court house. So people not being able to get their golf ball from an adjacent property is part of life.

For the guy to come out and give you a mouth full. He was just showing off for his friends.

The majority of males in the world tend to do things like that. This knowledge came from my latest pyschology class.

The smart move for sure and an accurate representation of the liability.

Almost all home-owner's insurance policies include coverage for activity away from your home in the liability portion. I am a licensed insurance adjuster in several states for what it's worth.

I hate to sound like a jerk but would never admit that I hit the shot that hit anything. I just drop a ball and continue playing. I'm sure I've hit houses or possibly cars on a par 5 dogleg left at my course. A lot of guys I play with yank the ball left there too. We just hit a provisional and move on.

I applaud you for keeping your cool. I'd have probably let it escalate and then next time when he wasn't home, sent a 4i stinger through the window with an old Top-flite.

Who said golf (and golfers) was losing its aura of gentlemanly behavior and sense of honor?

Have to be that way these days. Too many sue happy jerks out there that like to talk $hit out of a paper ahole. What happened to the good 'ol days where if you ran your mouth to someone you'd better be able to beat them or get it slapped shut? Personally, I'm the type that if my property were on the border of the course I'd have thrown the ball back and busted the guys balls about it, like "the hole is that way" or something. I feel bad the OP had to deal with a jerk like that and just stating the truth from my side.

So I and I pretty much everyone I play with would rather just avoid the risk and protect ourselves. I learned a long time ago that being all stand up and honest about every GD thing can land you in trouble.

i would think if someone lived on a golf course there was some assumption of risk that a wayward ball may find that person's property at one time or another and result in some damage.

i don't understand why the golfer would incur the liability.

What does he expect living on a golf course? It's like choosing to live in an aviary and getting pissed when the birds crap on you. I can understand being concerned about your property, but being rude to people when they are clearly apologetic is out of line.

To answer your question, In most cases you're going to be liable if the fixture is not encroaching on the course and the damage is because of your error. If it is encroaching reasonable boundaries, you can argue negligence on the part of the owner in court; hopefully it wouldn't go that far, but you still have recourse depending on the state that you live in.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in the Counselor's Corner. For more info see:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32084

classy

Little lesson for you. There comes a point where all honesty gets you is no defense and they send your a$$ to jail anyway. So in the case of hitting a house... "wasn't me".

I guess its like buying a house at the end of a airport runway, and then complaining to the airport about the noise. If you don't like it then move!

My parents live on a course and have had windows broken, etc. My understanding based on these events is that the course can post all the signs it wants, it really doesn't matter. Unless you can PROVE the golfer INTENTIONALLY hit the ball at the said object (house, person, etc.) you have no method of recourse. The golfer is not responsible and this is part of the liability the homeowner assumes when he/she purchases a home in such location.

If you could hit every shot where you wanted, why would you aim at someone's house? It actually, is as simple as that!

Whether it's intentional or not really doesn't matter on liability insurance, and liability coverage almost always excludes intentional acts.

In 37 years I've hit:

A bus driving beside a range. My liability paid without batting an eye.
A house in Spain on vacation. His liability paid for the window. 4th time in 2 years he claimed.
A guy in Texas. Bad shot, screamed fore, but he didn't want to hear about it. My health insurance covered a new tooth.

In life there's 3 things you don't want to be stingy with: Lawyers, Insurance & Tax preparers

truer words have never been spoken.

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Demand proof.

I'd yell fore, as you did, drop a ball and move on.

Here's the law in every jurisdiction in the U.S:

If you hit your ball at someone's house and damage their house, whether you did it intentionally, recklessly, or accidentally, you are responsible/liable for the damage. There is no assumption of the risk defense that you can assert.

Where the law gets a little dicey, and where jurisdictions differ, is if you hit another person with the ball and cause them injury. Then, in certain instances and jurisdictions, you may assert an assumption of the risk or other similar defense only if charged with negligence (as opposed to an intentional tort).

Also, where a homeowner tries to recover damages against the owner of the golf course visavis a nuisance claim there may be certain assumption of the risk type defenses that are applicable.

The presence or absence of insurance coverage is NEVER proof or disproof of liability. So even if the homeowner is insured and you're not, you are still liable.

Proving who did it and what damage was done are all separate matters. But the liability is unquestionable.

Arkstorm - "But the liability is unquestionable. "

Actually if anything reading the posts above, the other thread and looking all over it appears the liability is very questionable. I think that's the problem. Ultimately there is not a clear cut law that says who is at fault.

There was an article several years ago in one of the golf magazines about liability issues. In most cases that were resolved in court the home owners were ultimately liable if the home(homes) were built around the golf course. Something to the effect that if build a house on a golf course, especially in certain areas you are accepting the liability for the errant shots that will likely happen.

I would assume some members live on golf courses.

Am I correct in assuming your premium is higher due to the proximity to the course?

Wow. You said you were sorry and he responded with "you'd better be?"

At that point I'd tell the guy to go ____ himself.

What more does he want you to do? You hit a terrible shot and apologized for it. Big deal - that should be the end of it. He chooses to live on the golf course. Insurance has nothing to do with it, you didn't do any damage so insurance is off the table, and there's no reason for the guy to be a prick about it.

Actually I'd tell him that he should feel lucky that the shot was bad enough that it hit his house, but I'd be happy to go back, hit it just a little bit more on line so that lands in his Busch Lite.

This simply isn't true in practice. I am not sure where you are getting this information, but the golfer isn't liable for a ball hit at a house which results in damage. If he/she did so intentionally and this can be proved, that is an entirely different matter.

I have to agree. Despite sounding vaguely authoritative, arkstorm's info sounds faulty to me. I'm no lawyer, but everything I've ever heard from sources I trust is that the vast majority of golf ball vs. house cases that wind up in court are settled in favor of the golfer (but: very important to remember: not all of them!). The issue at hand turns out to be negligence, as defined by tort law. If a golfer is on a legit course, which obviously sanctions golf play, and the golfer makes every effort within his/her ability to hit the ball in bounds, an errant shot is in no way a negligent act. The liability winds up most with the homeowner, who knowingly set up shop next to a golf course, and next-most with the course, who knowingly sanctions golfing close to homes, and least of all with the golfer, as long as they are honestly playing with the intent of the activity sanctioned by the course.

Every course I've ever played has signs saying that any damage to property or injury is the sole responsibility of the golfer. But those signs are so much fluff, and not a legal disclaimer -- the idea being to nip in the bud a lot of incidents that might otherwise be directed towards the course, as well as curb sporadic assbaggery. Did you know that you cannot get a ticket for running a stop sign in a private parking lot? I had an ongoing argument with a friend about that, and to my chagrin, I finally asked a cop, and he said not only could they not write a ticket for that, but that unless there is an injury or ensuing assault, etc., that they normally would not even respond to an accident in a private parking lot.

Very subtle issue here though. I'd hate to be a judge settling one of these cases. I mean, even if you didn't intentionally hit the house...let's say you blew your top and shot backwards to exact revenge on someone who shot up on you -- I'd say you're violating the terms of your sanctioned activity, and if you hit a house, even though that was not your intent, then it's your problem entirely. Or what if you'd been uncannily hitting short duck hooks all day, so you decide to tee off with driver on that 150 yd. par three, and aim 30 degrees right, but stripe one 300 and straight, smashing somebody's 20' x 30' window. What then? Is club choice a factor, despite your actual intent? How about skill level? If you know your driver is not very consistent, is it patently irresponsible (and thus negligent) to ever hit driver to a narrow fairway lined with houses? "I knew there was a very good chance I'd hit a house, but I surely never intended to..." Should you only ever play a club which could not possibly ever reach someone's giant picture window (or street with traffic, or the next fairway, etc.)? Of course not.

As for injury: is it "worse" (negligence-wise) if you slice the crap out of a drive and hit someone on the next fairway, or if you hit a perfect "career" drive, and plunk someone on the green of a par 4, not having waited for them to clear, even though you never in a million years expected to hit it that far? Tough call, though intent-wise in any case...no negligence in either case, really.

Ok, enough conjecture. What do I think the honorable thing to do is if you damage a house (hint: it's not denying you hit the shot, even though there's no doubt in your mind...jackass!)? Honestly, the most fair option in my mind is to offer to split the homeowner's insurance deductable (and yes, they file the claim -- their house damaged, their homeowner's claim).

Of course, if the homowner who knowingly chose to live 20' off the fairway is a complet a-hole about it...could bias my sense of ethics somewhat.

I want to respond on both a legal basis and on an ethical basis which are often totally distinct but just so happen to agree on this mater.

First legal (and I just so happen to be an attorney who has litigated similar matters, so if I come off as overly authoritative I apologize in advance): It is true that there is case law in certain States where the golfer ultimately wasn't held liable. But these cases varied in material ways from our simple example of: "golfer hits house with errant shot and breaks window". Regarding the article that was mentioned above, that article does a very poor job of explaining the nuances which tipped the balance one way or another with regards to whether the golfer was liable. That author loosely amalgamated cases of property damage, personal injury and nuisance. And like I said in my first post above, all those receive different treatment under the law. But we are specifically discussing property damage only, so here goes:

With regards to property damage, while it is true that, as a practical matter, it is difficult for the homeowner to recover because you need to prove who did it and what damage was caused, assuming you can, you would bring an action for the intentional tort of trespass. This is different than negligence because there is no duty element in intentional tort, hence no assumption of the risk.

And to answer another point that was brought up regarding whether the golfer "intended" to hit the ball at the house, whether it was an "intentional" act. The most important point to remember here is that when it comes to intentional torts, you don't have to intent for the outcome to occur. In the example of a golfer hitting a house with his golf ball and causing damage, the intent element is satisfied by the golfer intentionally hitting the ball. Once the golfer intentionally hits the ball he has to assume responsibility for any outcome, including damaging a nearby house. Can there be certain circumstances which cause a departure from the cut and dry rule of liability? Certainly! But for purposes of our example, the golfer is legally liable in every U.S. jurisdiction. You can argue and cry that it aint fair, but 'dem are 'de facts.

Now, as to the ethical obligation of the golfer. For some reason it seems very clear to me that if I break someone's window with my golf ball I should pay to have it fixed. Maybe its just my own sense of personal accountability speaking here, but I can't even fathom how, after hitting an errant golf ball and breaking someone's window with it, I could think, "its not my fault?!?"

I'm not talking about insurance here. Regardless of whether I, or the homeowner, have insurance that would cover the cost, that is all good and well. Let the insurance cover it. But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that ethically, I did it, it was my oops, I should pay to fix the damage!

This is one of those rare occasions where the law and the ethics of personal accountability agree and you don't have to be King Solomon to figure it out. I expect disagreement here, even from other attorneys, but I'll be more than happy to explain in further detail if anyone has any questions.

ark,

attorney or not, you are 100% incorrect. buying a home on a course constitutes assumed risk. ethics and etiquette dictate that the golfer should pay for damage, but there is absolutely no, nada, zilch legal precedent for the golfer hitting an errant shot in the course of normal play to be held legally liable for breaking a window. legal precedents aside however, if you break a window, do the right thing and leave your contact info.

as for guys like ezra and grogger who try and take the "wasn't me" defense, people like you are total pr!cks and an embarrassment to golfers everywhere. may the gods infect you with an incurable case of permanent shankanitis and force you to become tennis players.

...and assumed risk is a defense to negligence, not an intentional tort. There is no legal precedence here because its never been taken on appeal, because its hornbook law. If you trespass and cause damage you are liable for the damage. End of story.

Guilty as charged.


They already have.

As stated earlier, a homeowner assumes risk when he buys a house on a golf course. I spoke with relatives who lives on a course and they do, in fact, pay a higher insurance premium as a result.

That said, I would like to think that if approached nicely by a homeowner whose house I hit, I would do the right thing. If I was approached by the homeowner as the OP was, I'd laugh in his face and tell him to first to bite me ... then to sue me.

I may have a little added perspective on this situation than most in that I own a golf course, live on that course, and am obviously a golfer. I have to deal with this occasionally, and it is 100% the golfer's responsibility. The complicated legal argument goes something like this "you hit ball, you cause damage, you pay for damage" pretty simple, it's covered under the golfer's homeowners/renters insurance. The problems arise only when the scumbag won't fess up and you can't prove who did it. Then I (the golf course) will pick up the tab since it's always cheaper to have happy neighbors than not. The same also goes for hitting cars whether driving down the road or parked in the lot.

The only assumtion you have in living on a course is that you will get balls in your yard, and if you can't deal with that with good humor then you shouldn't live there. I get balls in my yard all day and half are too embarrased to come get them. I just chuckle because you really have to suck to hit it there.

I was under the impression that negligence was a valid defense if it was an appendage of the property? A few years ago, a client at my firm where I intern hit a very expensive boat and damaged the fiberglass, but one of the attorneys made the argument that the boat had no business at that area on the property, as it was the worst possible area for the boat to be located. It was before my time, though, so I don't know a whole lot of the details.

Thanks to all for answering my question about a golfers liability when hitting a house with your golf ball. I've now heard opinions from a golf course owner, an attorney, an insurance guy, people that have actually hit something on someones property and opinions from everyone in between.

So in summary it appears the law is clear, the golfer is liable for property damage. The golfers homeowners insurance will definitely cover the damage to someone elses property. The homeowners insurance of the damaged home would also cover the damage. Choosing to fess up that you caused damaged is a matter of honor. But it also cuts both ways, because if the homeowner acts like a jerk about it, you might be prone to blow him off and make him claim it on his own insurance or take you to court. In practice it seems the local judges sometimes play king soloman and make their own rulings that are contrary to the law and in favor of the golfer (those judges must be golfers and know how the golf ball doesn't behave sometime ).

My friend that hit someones car in their driveway talked to the homeowner immediately after he hit his car. Told the homeowner that he would file the claim on his own homeowners policy. The golfer called the homeowner back the next day with the insurance info and the homeowner told him that because the golfer had been so honest and nice, that he not bother making a claim and that the homeowner would take care of it himself.

So bottomline, be honest and be a gentleman and offer to file a claim with your insurance. If the politeness is not reciprocated then I guess you can blow off the homeowner if you want and let the homeowner try and pursue you. I like trying the honest and gentlemanly approach first .

I built a house on the slice side of long par 5 14 years ago. Lived there 3 years and during that time lost 6 windows to golf balls. Only once did I find a note from the offending golfer. Like the post above, I called him to tell him "thank you for being honest" and took care of the repair myself. As far as insurance goes, my experience was that too many claims against your homeowner's insurance would be a quick way to get dropped. In FL, you don't want to have that happen (hurricanes.) In addition, the deductable would usually preclude you from getting a settlement that would come close to covering the damage.

During those 3 years, in addition to the broken windows, I had divots taken out of my sod, looked outside one early saturday morning into the face of a golfer looking through my flowerbed that was up against my house, golfers got angry with me making too much noise while cutting my grass, etc. The day we moved in my wife came around the side of the house into the back yard just in time to see a golfer lining up to take a swipe out of my newly layed sod (wasn't even rooted in yet).LOL Needless to say, he didn't get a chance to take that swing!!!

I did get even, in a small way, though. I sacrificed a Titleist to the cause. I drilled a hole into it with a large drill bit. Got a 3 foot piece of #4 rebar and epoxied it into the ball and drove it into the ground at the edge of my flowerbed. I can't tell you the pleasure I got out of seeing guys get out of their cart and walk past the "out-of-bounds" stakes into my yard thinking they had just found a free ball. It was so sweet. Also large black rubber snakes placed in flowerbeds increased the laugh factor for me.

My neighbor did something a little different...he had a fence (4 foot aluminum) and got tired of golfers hopping over, even though he installed a gate for them to use to get their stray balls. They never checked it, rather just hopped over. Ended up bending it in several places. He mounted a sign to the outside of it that read...

My Rottweiler can make it to this fence in 6 seconds, can you?

Even with all that, it was nice to be able to come home from a day of work and throw your clubs onto your shoulder and walk a few holes late in the afternoon with a neighbor. I enjoyed many of those. Would I ever live on a golf course again...absolutely. Just would be more careful in picking my lot.

A couple things worth mentioning here ....... many people including myself carry a high deductable homeowners policy ($1000), also, after a couple claims, the premiums go up. So no use pretending that insurance on anybody's part is really going to take care of the problem.

The other thing that strikes me is that in all my years of golfing, I have seen a lot of house and condos hit, and I have done this a few times myself, but have never seen glass broken or actual damage. Might just be luck.