I heard that in America every time you play aslong as somebody has marked your card and even when playing matchplay they go against your handicap, therefore more chance to lower your handicap. So I am wondering what the difference is

I think its worked out by a formula that allows for slope (?) and course ratings.

From folks on here it seems that they are about 4-5 shots worse than an equivalent UK hcp.

I think I understand what you're asking but I'm not completely sure. In the US I can go out and play a round of golf any time I want and as long as I turn in a signed card it will be used in calculating my handicap. Is this the same in England? I'm not sure about the match play part though but I don't think you can in the US. I'm guessing from your question you can't post match play rounds in England either.

I believe in the USA every round you play can be used for handicap purposes. Then out of every 30 rounds your best 10 results are used to adjust your HC taking slope/SS into account. In the UK, only tournaments played at your home club are used to adjust your handicap and everyone counts. I would say depending on the type of player you are the handicaps could either be pretty sim if you are super consistent and always shoot around the same or the US handicap could be significantly lower if one round you shoot 72 and the next 90 as only the 72 counts. US handicap is more potential ability based where as the UK is more current performance based.

thanks for the replies, yeah my handicap can only ever get lower by playing in tournements and then with all the high handicaps that play in club tournement the SSS comes down to like 4 under par so it is very annoying shooting 4 under your handicap and it not even dropping .1

I live in the US and play alot, and I dont even understand it.

Example being I'm a 9.1 handicap, and a trend of 8.6. I have been shooting alot of 80,81,82 mostly. I also have very few high 70's in the last few months (maybe 10 at most). Today I shot 82 and my handicap dropped to 8.6, w/ a trend of 8.7?

So basically I have been shooting my cap, and then it goes down? I dont understand how it works (really not at all)

Now the European handicap sounds like it sucks? I only say that because we dont have ANY stroke tournaments besides the club championship (this is very depressing because I love stroke play, we have tons of sramble tournys which I think I are boring?

So if someone could explain how the US handicap works, and Euro, that would be great.

Thanks
Ryan

With the USGA system, EVERY round is supposed to be submitted. The card does not have to be attested, in fact, most clubs allow the golfer to enter his scores on the internet.

The handicap is 96% of the average of your lowest 10 of your last 20 differentials. A differential is calculated as follows: (Adjusted gross score - course rating) * 113 / Slope

Simple eh?

*edit* Oh yeah, "adjusted" gross score means ESC (equitable stroke control) has been applied.

It really shouldn't be a mystery. A simple mathematical formula. Read all about it:
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-Sy...andicap-Manual/

Pretty easy to understand. http://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap.asp

Rather than have "the blind lead the blind", why don't you go to the actual source, the USGA website?

Handicap intro and basics here:
http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_...es---Resources/
http://www.usga.org/handicapping/publicati...r-Survival-Kit/

Handicap manual here:
http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14367

The European golf associations have also information pertaining to their handicap methodologies; here's the English Golf Union:
http://www.englishgolfunion.org/showpage.a...de=000100020009

i have heard this for a while about the european handicaps being harder to get low and some people saying that a 5 or 6 european handicap is the same as a us scratch or 1. i think that is pretty far off

i would take my 1.8 cap and put it up against a 2 european cap all day.

i can shoot in the 60's any given day and i can shoot mid to high 70's on the off days

but then again i have never played with a person with a european handicap...so i could be way off...just thought i would give me 2 cents

So, if you don't know exactly what the objectives of each handicap system are or exactly how the systems work, why are you even speculating and giving your "2 cents" ?

After reading the English Golf Union info. It basically sounds like to get a handicap the only scores that can be counted are ones in approved tournaments. I'm guessing that these must be frequent events over there because that would be very difficult for people to do in the US in my opinion. The only stroke play event/tournament I usually play in is my club championship. It would really suck if I couldn't count the 2 or 3 rounds I play each week into calculating my handicap.

One benefit to their system would probably be that it makes sandbagging more difficult, because most people aren't going to tank in a tournament on purpose just to raise their handicap.

The way the UK HCP system works is as follows.

Main way of achieving a lower hcp is to play in competitions whether Midweeks medals, Saturday Stablefords or Other Courses Open Competitions. As a starting golfer you have to submit three cards in which the average of them three cards is your hcp I.E If i Shot a 81,82,83 my HCP would be 12.

Then basically from there works on catagory of golfers Cat 1,2,3,4. Cat 1 Golfers have .1 reductions, cat 2 golfers have .2 reductions and so on but thats below CSS not below par also go up .1 if we go over. Also we do have general play reductions for private games

I personally feel our HCP system is harder than what your describing in the USA and would agree with the saying that a scratch golfer in the USA is equivilant to a 5 maybe even 6 hcp in the UK. As basically for him to achieve that level of HCP he would have to prove to be more consistant over a longer period of time.(Talking from personally experience I played against a USA 4 HCP playing of 7 and he couldn't touch me)

That just my opinion

ok well like i said i havent played against a european player so i cant say how good a euro 5 is, but i dont think a handicap system should be based off of tournament rounds only. what percentage of rounds/year are tournaments. i dont know how they do things in europe but i dont have a tournament every week. most rounds are casual rounds with buddies at various courses.

and i also know what you are talking about with you wiping the floor with a 4 handicap, but i have found that there are so many vanity handicaps that it is tough say. I know several so called 4's that i have never seen break 80, but like i said me being a 2 i rarely shoot more than a shot or so over my handicap.

but i guess their system works for them and our system works for us...just have some fun

It went down because shooting your handicap is supposed to be hard. The USGA handicap system is based on your potential. The index is based on your best 10 rounds out of your last 20, and according to the USGA you are only supposed to play to your handicap or better something like 22% of the time. So if you play to your handicap more often, it will go down.

Most clubs will have a Handycap comp once or twice a week.
This is split between 3 division's depending on your handycap.
So Divison 1 is 0-9 D2 9-18 and so on,in division 1 you get cut .1 for every shot under Standard Scratch.
Standard Scratch can be 70 on a par 72 because you are also taking in the high handycap into this.
So if you are a 3 handycaper you will have to shoot a 73 gross to get your handycap cut .1.

i have a friend who plays in a US college.
His handcap here is 2.1 but his handycap in the US is +1.3.
He does play in a lot more comp's that have a higher SS or Slope so its easier to get his handycap down.

I would say there is a 2/3 shot difference in Handycap's

The link I posted, pretty well covered it all and of course it was from the "ACTUAL SOURCE".

That's not 100% correct, you have to be 1 under the CSS to get cut, and category 1 (0-5) get cut 0.1 although division one can be anything from + to say 12.

I am off 3 and I've shot a gross 70 nett 67 (-3) and not got cut at all, as you say all categories are taken into consideration when working out CSS, so because a couple of 24 handicappers shot 88, I don't get cut, which I think is unfair.

The CSS should worked it out by category, then your performance would be graded against similary ability player.

P.S I know your worst scores are discounted in US, and all games are counted - my average gross in 2008 from all games is 70.15 from worst score is 78 (which I have shot once) from approx 40 rounds, best 65.

Thanks for the explaination. I understand the best 10 out 20 scores and all that stuff. Its the course slope and rating and the actual equation that had me confused.

Thanks very much for your responce its been helpful

Of course you covered it; obviously I was not referring to your post. I was looking up links and typing while you slipped in your post before I did (great minds think alike).
The question is, will anyone actually use the links to become really informed about rules and handicaps?

The answer is: probably not.

Whenever this subject is brought up it seems to generate the same responses:

1) 'Are you saying that because I play in America/Somewhere Else I'm better/worse than someone who plays elsewhere? How dare you? I've never been so insulted in my life etc. and, without understanding the issues at hand, or accepting that the two systems are fundamentally different, I'm going to waffle on about some tosh that makes no sense whatsoever - and throw in my scores over the last month as an aside and as a totally irrelevant addendum...'

2) 'I play off 1 in the UK. Frankly, I'm considering upping sticks and moving to Memphis as I want to be off a plus handicap and can see an easy way to achieve it. Do you think I could play on the PGA Tour when I play off +1? I know I won't be any better as a player but by God I'll have bragging rights in the pub when I can claim the plus handicap that I can't manage to get over here because I'm not good enough.'

3) 'I've never played golf in Europe in my life, and I don't understand my own system properly, let alone the other one; but I'm indignant that someone has suggested that I'd only be off 10 if I lived there. Signed Angry Golfer, Somwhere, USA (proud 7 handicap)'

4) 'I live in Europe and, since our handicaps are lower, and we're clearly better golfers as a result, it's no wonder we've done so well in the Ryder Cup over the last few years (last year excepted). Go Europe. Ole ole ole ole...'

As others have said, do a bit of research and you'll see that both systems have positives and negatives and that neither one is perfect or directly comparable with the other.

I've always wanted to be scratch, I'm moving to the US!!!!

I do believe that an index of 'X' is Europe is harder to achieve than that same index in the US.

But how does Europe handle differences in course difficulty. In the US we use course rating and slope to make those adjustments. is there something similar in Europe?

Thanks.

dave

Most golf courses in the UK have a standard scratch. A realy easy track may be par 72 but have a SS of 68 so your score for handicap purposes is based off a par score of 68.

I do not see why people 'want' a lower handicap. Leave your ego at the door. The higher your handicap, the more strokes you get!! That is a good thing. Just let whatever your scores are, decide your handicap (no sandbagging - that is just wrong - be honest).

As for the difference, they have been well documented above and with all the links given. I spent 7 months in the UK recently so spent a lot of time figuring the differences.

I will not say anything about how much differences others are but for me, with my own scores, here is what I get, using my last 20 rounds (dates to July last year) and yes, I am using every score and not just tournaments:

9.1 Index - Using US system, with course rating and slope rating

10.8 handicap - Using UK system and SSS and their category adjustment mechanisms (they do not use slope ratings)

So there it is for me. The main differences are twofold: 1. the use of slope ratings in the US; 2. counting best 10 of last 20 scores for calculation in US and not ALL scores.

The only time it really matters is in having handicapped tourney with competitors from each side of the water in the same tourney

OK, to promote the dissemination of definitive information about handicaps in general and the English vs. US systems in particular, here are two articles written by Dean Knuth (aka, the "Pope of Slope") who developed the USGA handicap and course rating system (also used in many countries around the world):

(1) Comparing USGA with British handicaps - http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html
(2) Politics in British Course Rating - http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/politi...british%20.html

For everything you want (need) to know about the history and methodology of handicapping, read the many articles here: http://www.popeofslope.com/index.html

If you actually read several of the key articles on this site, you will then have a great deal of knowledge about handicaps and can thereby provide an iinformed opinion (and even learn some tips on how to chose the ideal partner for a net better-ball match)! The facts and anecdotes about sandbagging are also entertaining and infuriating.

Remember, dammit, the purpose of a handicap is to provide equity in enabling golfers with different skills from different clubs to compete in a variety of competitive formats; not to provide an "average" score or compare handicaps calculated in different ways and thereby achieve some kind of "bragging rights". Jingoistic fever fomented during the Ryder Cup provides enough of that.

The "Pope of Slope" Article referenced above, relating to diff between USGA and British handicaps, is excellent!!

It also highlights exactly why in my prior post, I mentnioed only what my calculation difference was. It differs for everyone, as some examples in the book indicated. Even my own calculation differences has its flaws but at least gives a general illustration that there are meaningful differences.

By the way, if, in the spirit of the CONGU system only using tournament scores, I were to calculate my handicap on that basis, it would be way higher than my USGA handicap. I only had 4 tournament scores and all in the past year.....my CONGU system handicap would be 16.0. Yes, I sucked in the tournament rounds. Nobody accuses me of being a sandbagger. lol. However, I am not going to enter a tournament saying I am a 16 handicap because THAT would be sandbagging.

I am going over to Scotland for a multi-day and multi-course handicapped tournament next April with golfers from all over the world. How would you possibly get an equitable handicap so we are all on a level playing field? You cannot and will not. Hence, I just plan to go, play my best, enjoy the competition and whatever the standings are, they are. If I play well compared to my own ability, I will be pleased. All these courses have ratings and slopes so at least I can compare to myself. Will be hard to compare to UK based golfers but like I said....as long as I play relatively close to my handicap, I will be satisfied and pleased.

I would sure like to stand on 18th at St. Andrew's with a trophy but due to comparison differences in the handicap calculations, I am not going to be upset if I am not in that position.

Thanks - sounds like similar systems (from a course difficulty perspective) other than the fact that the UK system does not use the slope concept.

Here in the US folks tend to judge the difficulty of a course by its slope. A better perpective (IMHO) is to look at course par vs. course rating (as it appears is done in the UK).

dave

No, it's not. The English system is too simplistic and many countries outside the U.S. have adopted the USGA rating and handicap system for the reasons cited by Dean Knuth in the articles linked above. As I said, read and yea shall learn, i.e. the course rating is intended for one thing, the slope rating another, and par is something else still.

I know these articles are longer than Tweets and text messages, but, really, they will enlighten the reader about the subject at hand (and that's why I make the effort to post this stuff).

The articles are quite good. Thanks for posting them. I was only saying two things.

The UK has a concept similar to course rating in the USGA system

People in the US tend to view slope as a measure of course difficulty. That (IMHO) is a mis-use of slope. For example it is very correct to view slope as a mesure of how quickly a course gets easier as the skill of the golfer improves (higher the slope, the fast the course gets easier as the skill of the golfer as measured by index gets better).

dave

I'll have to think a bit about your latter point that a "course gets easier as the skill of the golfer...gets better". Slope IS a measure of course difficulty...for the bogey golfer relative to the course rating used for the scratch golfer. This attempt at equity provides the bogey golfer with extra strokes on a more difficult course with more obstacles, notably longer holes, with more carry. An opposite example is Pinehurst #2. It's quite difficult for a good golfer to score well there, notably because of the challenging green complexes. However, the bogey golfer does not have severe carries over rough or ravines, huge bunkers, or water hazards that, say, Bethpage Black or an Arizona or Hawaiian course might have. The latter courses would typically have a higher slope relative to course rating than Pinehurst #2 as these obstacles affect the bogey golfer more than the scratch golfer. (I might be wrong about the Pinehurst #2 course rating and slope differential as I'm doing this from memory, but you get my point).

Knuth makes an interesting point in his article about links courses not having the usual parkland obstacles such as water hazards, OB and trees to contend with, so those might result in the anomaly of a lower slope rating were the things that make a links course so challenging, wind and rain, not taken into consideration. These factors obviously can make a links more difficult for the bogey golfer because wind and rain hurt his scores more than those of the scratch golfer. And the links course is relatively benign when the weather is calm.

So, the course rating (SSS or CSS in England) rates the course for the scratch golfer but slope rates the course for the amount of extra "help" the bogey golfer needs on a difficult course. (Before the protests get too loud from the low handicap golfers that this is unfair, remember, the multiplication of the handicap index by .96 is intended to help the good golfer (reward for excellence) as does the typical handicap adjustment of 90% in a better ball tournament. Knuth comments that the historical .75 adjustment of handicaps in the UK tilts the table even more toward the scratch golfer. I don't know how common this still is.

It is very difficult to compare US / UK handicap systems. I am a member of a par 70 short but tight course that some American friends of mine guess is around a 100 slope - the SS is usually 68 or 69.

I played a very difficult course a few weeks ago, very long par 70, a couple of guys with US college experience said the slope would be about 130 - the SS was +3.

Makes you realise how good David Horsey is - he held a +6 UK handicap when he turned pro!

hi guys,
I was wondering if some of you could answer a few questions for me. now im new to the site so sorry if im going off topic!

I currently have a handicap of 9.4 here in England. im looking to get my handicap down to about 2-4 in the next two years so i can have a chance of playing college golf. this may seem abit ridiculous but lately the last 4-5 months ive been playing to about 5-6 handicap on average, but because of the standard scratch at my club its really hard to get my handicap down!

im looking to take a gap year before i come over to you guys in the states for university (hopefully ) so my question is this:
would you recommend i moved over to USA for the whole of my gap year, live with my grandfather, join a club and get my handicap down that way? would it be easier than staying in England because of your handicap system?

guys any kind of opinion/advice would be much appreciated, ive been reading on this site for a week now and you all seem to be die hard golfers i must say!

thanks again
Nathan

I would think you would want to spend your gap year in the country where you want to play college golf. Of course, the availability of tough courses, practice facilities, and instruction should also be considered, as well as the length of the golf season. Not to mention your ability to pay for your expenses.

I would assume that any university would realize that an index 1.0 is the US is a whole lot different than an index of 1.0 in the UK. So the differences in handicap systems would not seem to be the real issue in my mind.

U.S. universities will be accustomed to recruiting from U.S. high schools. And (I would assume) that match results would be what they look at first. Where ever you are you'll need some kind of standard that they can relate to. US handicap is probably not it and UK handicap would be much closer to 'what they typically see' as it is competitive scores only, as I understand things.

If you come to the US for a year I think you'll need some way to establish a competitive record (same goes for staying in the UK).

dave

Tell me about it, I have been 2 under my handicap on each of the last two competitive rounds at my club and only got reduce 0.1 in total!

The UK system is so hard to get low on, you Americans don't know how good you got it.

I seriously think that the UK system has a major flaw - the CSS is calculated on all category players scores - so if a 28 handicapper shoots a 90, this can affect the CSS for category 1 players, I think that's wrong. I think it would be much fairer if it were calculated by category.