According to "rumors on the range" and local scuttlebutt, the Women's US Open will be held the week after the Men's US Open at Pinehurst No. 2 in 2014.

I have not yet heard any official announcements, but my sources are typically reliable.

It actually makes a lot of sense because you only have to do one set-up (you just can't believe the infrastructure that accompanies a major golf tourney), and the course disruption extends well before and after the event. I assume that the ladies will play the 'blue tees', or maybe even Donald Ross orginal tees which were 6900 yards, IIRC.

Should be interesting.

dave

I would think the course would be in pretty rough shape after the men are done with it. Lots of divot holes to hit out from. Seems crazy to me.

Following the men may give women's golf the exposure it needs. The have a good product, they need to market it better.
It also will cut costs down. One venue merging costs. Sounds like a winner to me.

I agree. They could play Pineneedles instead, and many will argue it is even a better course than No. 2. The infrastructure savings could mean a big savings for the USGA though.

The ladies will hate it. LOTS of divots, greens faster than they're used to and rough thicker/longer than they're used to at a typical Open.

So if there's a playoff, the women get screwed out of a practice round? I don't see this happening. Not saying your source is wrong or lying, but it just doesn't make sense.

-mini

Lots of talk today regarding this possibility. See Jason Sobel's column: http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=4256723

I communicated with a couple LPGA Tour players this morning who each bemoaned the potential course condition and the practice round restrictions if played in consecutive weeks on the same course.

It makes sense in some ways, just a matter of seeing how the details play out.

I could see putting an extra week between the championships and making it happen if both were on No. 2.

If they wanted to do back to back week's how about the ladies playing #4 instead?

The first two things that crossed my mind were :

1) "Volunteer fatigue". It seemed to me that most everyone who I ran across as a (locally based) volunteer at the 2005 Open at Pinehurst was also a volunteer at the 2007 Open at Pine Needles (and vice versa). I wonder how many of them will be willing to do it two weeks.

2) Surely they will be doing a sudden death type play-off (if required) rather than the normal 18 hole (like last year). Making the ladies give up another day seems totally wrong to me.

dave

They are going to widen the fairways and take the rough down for the women. I don't know how they will slow the greens down in a week though.

Saw this on Golf Central last night. Doesn't seem to make sense for many of the reasons already mentioned. Have you ever seen a course the day after a US Open? It's pretty beat up. I don't see how they could have it in perfect shape for the ladies.

First, not having played No. 2 (yet, it is on the agenda for 2009), I cannot comment on the direct comparison. Nevertheless, I have played Pineneedles and it is a fabulous course. I loved it and I am looking forward to playing it again (and Mid Pines) in August. Hosting the US Women's Open, Pineneedles was a fantastic venue. Unfortunately, Pineneedles cannot host a Men's major b/c it cannot be made long enough. As a result, it will always be perceived as 2nd best to Pinehurst No. 2.

Which leads us to the 2nd issue, women not getting to play the best courses. If you compare the venues that the Women's majors have been contested on against the venues used for the Men's majors, there is no comparison. List all the great courses that have hosted PGA Championships and US Open's (Plus Augusta). How many have hosted a US Women's Open?

By moving the US Women's Open to the US Open site, the USGA is attempting to send a message that they want to get the women on the best courses in the US.

In terms of downside, the choice has a many potential negatives:
1. A US Open (and the throng of fans) will do a lot of damage to a course. The women will not get a "clean and perfect" course to play on.
2. Yardage - Using the same course will show the enormous distance difference in the two tours. I figure 800-1,000 yards and maybe 1 stroke to par. A 509 yard par four on the first Sunday may show up on TV the following Sunday as a par 5. (I don't care about this fact. I enjoy women's golf and don't care how far they hit it.)
3. Spectators - If they do not draw an enormous crowd for the women's event, the grandstands are going to look empty on TV.
4. Corporate Sponsors - Let's say you buy a suite for the Men's Open. Will Political Correctness require you to buy one to the Women's event? If it does, do you send employees and customers to both events? Do you offend a customer by sending them to the Women's event instead of the men's event?

All in, I think it is going to be a great experiment and is worth the risk.

It's not quite as easy as cutting some grass. If you cut too much grass at one time, you can kill it. Grass uses grass to generate its food (that photowhatchamacallit thing).

-mini

Well, they are. Not sure how they do it though... they talked about it on CBS.

The grounds crew is going to have to pull off a miracle to have the greens in a good playing condition.

If they do a graduated cut, I don't see the rough to fairways as a big issue. The 'first cut' should 'cut to fairway length' without an issue, I would think. The rest of it is less of a problem IMHO, although the quality of the 1st cut for the ladies may suffer some. But the TiftonWhatever bermuda hybrids are amazingly resiliant once the weather turns really hot. You won't kill that stuff with a single scalping, much less just cutting it back an inch or two.

They key to the second week is what you can't do the first week. The USGA tends to really water-starve the course to near death for the weekend. If they do that then they are running a real risk for the second week.

Fairways on No. 2 tend to be cut so damned close regardless, that a filled and leveled divot plays about like the fairway.

But regardless, this will not be easy and will probably generate some complaints even if it is done well.

dave

There is absolutely no way they could hole 2 Opens back to back on the same course. Sunday of the Mens the course would be completely scortched and if you remember the Women's Open course doesn't play as fast as the Mens'. Its usually pretty lush and very playable. Perhaps at the Women would play one of the other Pinehurst Courses??

official

Some are forgetting that it is not Mike Davis' MO to scorch greens or loose the course. That was years ago with a different director of rules and competition.

I too wonder how they will condition the course after all of the divots. One thing to consider is that the ladies may have a different target landing zone than the men. If they want them hitting 6 irons into certain greens for the men it could be from 185 and the ladies from 165 so the grouping of divots could be 20 yards separated.

As for slowing down greens, that can be accomplished in 2-3 days. Grass grows, every day in the summer.

Interesting challenge. I think viewers will want to see how the ladies handle the same course after the men and how the scores compare.

Good point. I was already looking forward to the Men's Open, I think it is going to be an awesome two weeks.

Don't know if you live in the South and are familiar with Bermuda grass, but Bermuda fairways and tees at a regular course need mowing twice a week anyway, so the course will be able to recover from the men's open. I doubt much recovery will be needed. Bermuda is about the most drought- and heat-tolerant grass and is the fastest to respond to a little water. If nature doesn't provide it, irrigation will and the grass will be in good shape. The divots could all be plugged, similar to changing the cups on the green, and will be imperceptible after a couple of days.

At any rate, they have five years to experiment.

Yup...

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/articles/...5068905812.html

Far Hills, N.J. – The United States Golf Association has announced that the 2014 U.S. Open and U.S. Women’s Open will be played in consecutive weeks on the No. 2 course at Pinehurst Resort & Country Club in the Village of Pinehurst, N.C. The U.S. Open will be conducted June 12-15, and the U.S. Women’s Open will be played June 19-22.

It will mark the first time the two national championships will be contested on the same course in back-to-back weeks.

“This is a unique and wonderful opportunity to showcase the U.S. Open and U.S. Women’s Open,” said USGA President Jim Vernon. “The USGA is constantly striving to improve its championships, and conducting these championships in back-to-back weeks allows the Association to provide a new and exciting experience for the players and fans alike.”

“The ability to provide women golfers with the opportunity to compete in a championship setting on the same course, under similar conditions, as their male counterparts is certainly unique to the USGA,” said Barbara Douglas, chairman of the USGA Women’s Committee. “The staging of these championships is a significant statement for the sport of golf.”

By hosting the 2014 U.S. Women’s Open, Pinehurst No. 2 will become the first and only course to host the U.S. Open, U.S. Women’s Open, U.S. Senior Open, U.S. Amateur and U.S. Women’s Amateur. Overall, Pinehurst No. 2 has hosted nine USGA championships since 1962. Most recently the famed course was the venue for the 2008 U.S. Amateur, won by Danny Lee. In 2005, Michael Campbell edged Tiger Woods by two strokes to win the U.S. Open on Pinehurst No. 2. The 1999 U.S. Open at Pinehurst provided one of the most dramatic finishes in history when the late Payne Stewart sank an 18-foot putt for par on the 72nd hole to top Phil Mickelson by one stroke.

“This double-header, staged at one of the sport’s most storied golf courses, promises to provide a promotion of women’s championship golf unlike anything we’ve ever seen,” said David Fay, USGA executive director.

“I’m thrilled to hear the Women’s Open will be played immediately following the U.S. Open on the same golf course,” said three-time U.S. Women’s Open champion Annika Sorenstam. “Playing the same course the week after the men’s Open will help attract new fans to the Women’s Open.”

Pinehurst No. 2 was created by famed golf architect Donald Ross. Ross completed the course in 1907, but he would continue to refine the layout until his death in 1948. Pinehurst No. 2 was the setting for the 1962 U.S. Amateur (won by Labron Harris Jr.), the 1989 U.S. Women’s Amateur (Vicki Goetze) and the 1994 U.S. Senior Open (Simon Hobday). The course hosted three USGA international team championships, including the 1967 World Senior Amateur Team Championship. In 1980, Pinehurst No.2 was the host course for the Women’s World Amateur Team Championship and the World Amateur Team Championship.

“We are thrilled to accept this honor,” said Pinehurst owner and CEO Bob Dedman. “The entire Pinehurst team is excited by the opportunity to make history, and deeply committed to the success of these two national championships. We look forward to challenging the world’s greatest players on Donald Ross' masterpiece, Pinehurst No. 2, in 2014.”

For more than a century, Pinehurst has identified some of the world’s best players. Winners of the venerable North & South Amateur, which began in 1901 on Pinehurst No. 1 but moved to Pinehurst No. 2 when it was completed in 1907, have included Francis Ouimet, Jack Nicklaus, Davis Love III and Curtis Strange. The North & South Women’s Amateur began two years later, and winners include Glenna Collett Vare, Dorothy Campbell Hurd, Louise Suggs, Babe Zaharias, Hollis Stacy and Morgan Pressel.

The North & South Open began in 1902, and winners included Ben Hogan (1940, ’42, ’46), Walter Hagen (1918, ’23, ’24) and Sam Snead (1941, ’49, ’50). In 1936, Pinehurst No. 2 hosted the PGA Championship, won by Denny Shute. The USA Ryder Cup team scored a runaway victory over Europe at Pinehurst in 1951. The course has also hosted numerous PGA Tour events.

The USGA has conducted several national championships on the same course in the same year in the past. In 1895, Newport (R.I.) G.C. was used for the U.S. Amateur, Oct. 1-3, and for the U.S. Open, Oct. 4. In 1896, Shinnecock Hills G.C. in Southampton, N.Y., was the venue for the U.S. Amateur, July 14-17, and for the U.S. Open, July 18. Chicago (Ill.) G.C. hosted the 1897 U.S. Amateur, Sept. 14-18, and that year’s U.S. Open, Sept. 17. Wilmington (Del.) C.C. hosted the 1978 U.S. Junior Amateur and U.S. Girls’ Junior simultaneously, but the championships were not conducted on the same course.

In 2000, Pumpkin Ridge G.C. in North Plains, Ore., hosted the U.S. Junior Amateur and U.S. Girls’ Junior, using two courses, Witch Hollow and Ghost Creek, interchangeably. The final three rounds of both championships were conducted on the Ghost Creek course. This year, the U.S. Junior Amateur and the U.S. Girls’ Junior match-play rounds are being conducted simultaneously on the New Course at Trump National G.C. in Bedminster, N.J., July 20-25.

Prior to 2014, the 2009 U.S. Women’s Open will be contested at Saucon Valley C.C. in Bethlehem, Pa., July 9-12; the 2010 U.S. Women’s Open will be at Oakmont (Pa.) C.C. July 4-11; the 2011 Women’s Open at The Broadmoor, Colorado Springs, Colo., July 7-10; the 2012 Women’s Open at Blackwolf Run G.C., Kohler, Wis., July 5-8; and the 2013 Women’s Open at Sebonack G.C., Southampton, N.Y., June 27-30.

The 2010 U.S. Open will be conducted at Pebble Beach (Calif.) Golf Links, June 17-20. The 2011 U.S. Open will be conducted at Congressional C.C., Bethesda, Md., June 16-19; the 2012 U.S. Open at The Olympic Club, San Francisco, Calif., June 14-17; and the 2013 U.S. Open at Merion G.C., Ardmore, Pa., June 13-16.

In 2015, the U.S. Open will be contested at Chambers Bay in Tacoma, Wash., June 18-21, and the U.S. Women’s Open will be played at Lancaster (Pa.) Country Club, July 9-12.

About the USGA

The USGA is the national governing body of golf in the USA and Mexico, a combined territory that includes more than half the world’s golfers and golf courses. The Association’s most visible role is played out each season in conducting 13 national championships, including the U.S. Open, U.S. Women’s Open and U.S. Senior Open. Ten USGA national championships are exclusively for amateurs, and include the U.S. Amateur and the U.S. Women’s Amateur. The USGA also writes the Rules of Golf, conducts equipment testing, provides expert course maintenance consultations, funds research for better turf and a better environment, maintains a Handicap System, celebrates the history of the game, and administers an ongoing “For the Good of the Game” grants program, which has allocated more than $63 million over 12 years to successful programs that bring the game’s values to youths from disadvantaged backgrounds and people with disabilities.

Looks like a good vacation opportunity... two US Opens in two weeks- if they open the course as soon as the LPGA is done with it, you can get some Open-conditions golf in to boot!

Can you make hotel reservations 5 years ahead of time?

It's a great concept, and would probably help save a lot of money...

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN THOUGH...

Course would be destroyed. Too many complications from a maintenance perspective...

Let's hear the superintendants speak up...

Well, I think it is more or less official at this point, so saying (in all caps) that "it will never happen" seems a little off. Looks like it will happen, however good or bad it is.

I'm sure they consulted a lot of experts before they made this decision- people who know a little more than even the experts here on GolfWRX. I'm sure they will have a huge team of grass-perts (grass experts!) working the course over as necessary. And I'm sure watering the greens like crazy will slow them down sufficiently for the ladies- not that I see a reason to slow them down- I mean, why can't the gals putt the same as the guys? Driving distance, I can see where that may be a problem- but I don't see where gender plays into putting speed.

The biggest question in my mind about this whole thing is: will this thread be open for five years?

The problem on number 2 is not putting fast greens, it is trying to hold the green on your approach shot. The women may be hitting longer irons with less spin into many of the holes and if the greens are as fast and firm as it is for the men, they will be bouncing off of the greens. I am with you on the USGA knowing what they are doing and having 5 years to figure out any problems.

FWIW, on a typical day No. 2 sees maybe 160 to 180 golfers. So the 4 days prior to the ladies taking over the course (assuming no play-off) will be light, relative to the norms for the course. I just don't see "divots in the landing areas" being a huge problem.

IMHO this will be about trying to manage water across two consecutive weeks.

I still remember back in 2005 when I saw somebody hit a short iron out of the rough on the 18th hole. The ball landed maybe 20' short of the green and bounced at least 8' into the air (and 15 yards forward). Of all the times that I have played that course I have never seen it when that shot would have bounced any more than 2' high and 8' forward.

That will be the trick - how do you get the Sunday conditions that you want without compromising the greenside conditions in the following week.

dave

Divots shouldn't be too much of an issue, because the women won't be playing from the same tees or fairway positions as the men.

Rough length shouldn't be an issue, because the bermuda grass doesn't have to be tall in order to be difficult. In bermuda rough, the top of the ball can be completely visible, and the ball still isn't going to come out.

My only concern would be for the health of the greens after a week of US Open speed.

Pretty unprecedented, eh? I like the idea, since I plan on going down for the Open that week anyway. Logistically, it'll work great. I think the course will be ok as far as fairways, landing areas (different for men/women), and the greens. The on-course spectator traffic might be an issue though. After that, I'd have to think there'd be a backup plan if something goes wrong, maybe more the women's tournament to No. 4, 8, or old reliable Pine Needles.

Keep in mind that I'm the same guy who is predicting that Paul Casey will dethrone Tiger from number one as well!

I would like to hear from some superintendants on this topic though!

I love the idea, but I don't think it is the best for the course nor the women...IMO...

If the course is playable after that kind of stress. My money says they lose the greens around Wednesday of Womens' Open week.


Yup



Have you seen what these guys do to a course? Or what the women do to it? I don't mean on TV...I mean actually seen the course.



Very good point.


Agreed.

USGA.... This is going to be Major Championship Fail.

-mini

this only makes sense in one area, the taking down and putting up of bleachers, scoreboards, vending, etc. in all other areas, this makes no sense at all. i can see doing the US Open and Women's Open at the same course, but not back to back weeks. the one thing you can not plan for is weather, and the USGA will have to have perfect weather for the US Open so that they can keep the course in good enough shape for the very next week. i live about 2 hours south of Pinehurst and if we have a drought like we did two years ago, forget it, the greens will be so baked out, the women's open will have to move. think back to 2005.....the heat was terrible and the greens were baked out. it would be unfair for the women to have to come in the next week and play on that course. some other people brought up divots. it would be unfair for the women to have to put up with all the divots.

again, i think this is a good idea, if they would have 1 or 2 weeks gap between the two championships, not back to back weeks. therefore, they could keep the bleachers, etc up and let the grounds crew have time to restore the course after the men play. i think that the USGA has to rethink this decision.

Sounds great in theory (and is a great advertising tool for Pinehurst, just look at their homepage), but in the end, I'm expecting some sort of disaster. I can see the interviews with the LPGAers now.....


Don't put it on the same course in the same year. Here's the way I see it. If the US Open was on a course down the road from me, I'd obviously go. If the Women's US Open was the next week after at the same course, I'd probably skip it. Now, if the US Open was 2000 miles away, I'm not going. If the Women's US Open was at the course down the road from me, of course I'm going to go. I wonder what kind of crowds they're going to be able to pull (same market, how many people are going to take 2 weeks of work off?) and like you guys have mentioned, the conditions are not going to be good for the ladies and therefore unfair. If they pull it off, awesome. Why not put the women on the course the men played the year before?

This idea is just as exciting and equally stupid:

Hold them the SAME week, BOTH at Pinehurst, but on two different but adjacent Pinehurst courses.

-mini

That would be a great way to kill the LPGA. Imagine how few spectators would follow the ladies, less than 100 I would guess.

All the negative stuff you guys are bringing up about the weather could be a problem any week the tournament is held in this area.

You could just as easily have great weather and great conditions.

Look at the US Open this week- gonna be difficult to get fast greens with the 5+ inches of rain we've had in the last month, and more for the rest of the week.

Last I looked, golf was an outdoor sport- the weather is something you deal with, not worry about.

This is an experiment- if it works, or comes close to working, maybe they'll do it again, making it better each time. If it is a colossal failure, they won't do it again. I guarantee that the future of the PGA/LPGA will not hinge on this one experiment.

Everyone is so sure they know what will happen in five years... let them do it and let's see! So many things will happen and change between now and then, it is impossible to predict anything.

This is an interesting thread, and like one said. Will it stay active for 5 years, that could be a record!!

Some thoughts I have on my own and from reading other posts.

• Huge saving on the infrastructure costs
• Pinehurst is probably one of the few areas that could accomplish this. It's a big retirement area, so plenty of people with free time to volunteer at both and attend both
• In a time where finding coroporate sponsorship is tough, it could be sold as a two for one. USGA has increased the amount of corporate sponsors the past few years and this could be one way of getting more for the Womens Open
• As mentioned the Pinehurst Bermuda can hold up to the heat and traffic it will get.
• Huge savings for NBC and other partners as well, just sending one crew to one locattion.
• Excitement will be created for the Womens that has never been created before. Just like putting a low rated TV show on after a highly rated one, to get the audience.

I really think this is an exciting idea, and for someone who has been to both Opens at Pinehurst previously, I can't wait to make plans for this.

Because the very next week after the United States Open is really going to draw at the gate.

Sure.

-mini

There are so many ways to market this... how about discounted tickets if you purchase tickets to both events- discounted hotels if you stay for both events, etc.

Again, the atmosphere/landscape of this thing cannot be predicted five years from now. The economy will be different, the list of golfers participating in the events will be different, the technology used to deliver the events to fans will be different... etc.

Who knows, maybe Lorena Ochoa will be making her farewell tour because she wants to retire. Maybe Paula Creamer will be going for a record consecutive Open wins. There may be some overlying controversy that the media latches onto five years from now... you can't predict any of this. All you can do is plan the event around the available golf courses and try out some ideas.

I was inside the ropes in 2005 at No. 2 and 2007 at Pine Needles (marshall in both cases). My impression was that the real wear was

1) What the spectators did to the course

2) The stress put on the course in general based on water (or more importantly lack of water).

dave

I wouldn't worry about the health of the greens too much, Paul Jett is one of the best supers in golf, and the greens on #2 are not set up to the speeds of other Open courses, as they would become unplayable, due to the contours that Donald Ross designed.