According to the following article about John Daly:

In fairness to the PGA Tour, it has welcomed back Daly several times through the years after his various scrapes and stints in rehab. For this it deserves credit, but also quizzing: what was the difference this time? And if the answer is that even sympathy and understanding has its limits, then there is another question – why should there be any limit on sympathy and understanding shown to Daly? After all, he has done more damage to himself than to golf, unlike, say, a former major champion in years past who was known to his peers as a notorious cheat but who entered his dotage as a much-revered figure within the game.

Who is the "notorious cheat" that they are talking about?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/...ing-sponsorship

Gary Player in the 1974 British Open is the only one I can think of they could be talking about.

Vijay S.??? Jakarta Open?1985?

That was one incident. Player has been accused of cheating by a lot of players like Tom Watson and was accused of avoiding a lost ball in the Open with his caddie dropping him a new one that resulted in a win.

Perhaps Seve Ballesteros? I've read about this "gamesmanship" tactics so maybe some saw it as cheating?

Yeah, I heard that too. Forgot about that one... Good call.

Tiger Woods?!?!











sorry i just could not resist after all, TW represents all that is wrong with the world these days

I believe you are correct, I had to go look up the definition of dotage, lol. Vijay is not old enough or senile enough to make him the target of said piece of golf writing.

Bad call. Seve used some gamesmanship, as did many other players, but he was never accused of cheating.

They are almost certainly talking about Player, as mentioned by others, but there is a current Champions Tour player and multiple major winner who earned an unflattering nickname for his interpretation of the rules for marking the ball on a green.

Didn't say it was true, but it was a good call. Seve has been accused of cheating for instance in the Belfry in 1989. Once again not saying its true, just that I have heard him 'Accused' several times.

Player.

-mini

Seve certainly used gamesmanship like few other before or since (his chronic cough was a fixture of professional golf for years and his exchange with Andy McFee at Valderrama - be careful Andy! It might bite... - was one of the most amusing things I've ever seen in golf, but Seve's behaviour never crossed the line into the realms of true cheating.

For any right minded person there's a huge difference between using a bit of psychology to put your oppenent a little ill at ease and changing a 6 to a 4 on a scorecard after it's been signed by the marker to make a cut.

As far as I'm aware, Player has always vehemently denied the supposed Oddjob incident and there was never any credible evidence to suggest any wrongdoing on his part either wilfully or unwittingly. That said, I'm assuming the mystery golfer alluded to in the article above is the Man in Black.

We are just throwing out names of people who have been accused of cheating to try and figure out who the article is talking about. I wish they would just use names in these articles, but I guess that takes the fun out of it.

Seve wasn't accused of cheating at The Belfry in 1989.

The controversy that year surrounded a drop which Paul Azinger received on the 18th in his singles match against Ballesteros. After driving into the water, Azinger was afforded a penalty drop in a position that allowed him to put his third shot into the left greenside bunker from where he made a 5 and halved the hole. Seve argued that the drop was incorrect and that Azinger should not have been permitted to drop at the point from where he played. Nonetheless, the decision - which was overseen by a senior European rules official - stood, as did the result of the match.

Seve never accused Azinger of cheating; nor of any wrongdoing whatsoever over the incident. He simply maintained that a mistake had been made in the interpretation of the rule given the topography of the hole and the line of Azinger's drive as it related to hazard boundaries. To this day, he maintains that the uncharacteristically bad shot he hit after Azinger played his third shot was down to a lack of concentration on his part after allowing himself to become distracted.

In all honesty, there are very few players in the game who have had charges of wilful cheating upheld against them. There are many examples of players owho have been accused of bending the rules or being creative with the interpretation of certain elements of them, but the actual number of pros who have been hauled over the coals for what has amounted to deliberate dishonesty is very few indeed.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up mat562.

Who is it and how is marking the ball even open to interpretation?

I believe he is referring to Mark O'mera at the French Open.

I have to say, i really do enjoy reading your posts, not just for what you say but also for the manner in which you say it.

some will write or say anything just to stip the pot sometimes i wish i could reach through the computer and give your keyboard a good whack with a 5 pd sledge hammer so you cant make another silly comment like that one

Correct. Mark It Nearer, as he became known.

It's got to be Player.

I've always heard that Azinger only dropped the ball where did because Seve insisted that that's where it crossed the hazard. Azinger disagreed with him but the offical(s) agreed with Seve. And I'm sure he hit a bad 3rd shot because Azinger hit a tremendous 3 wood onto the green after taking his drop, not because he was rattled by the drop itself.

Seve never went anywhere near the official or Azinger whilst all the discussion was taking place. He was 150 yards or so away in the semi rough to the right of the fairway. When he saw the drop being taken, he did speak to an official unconnected with the ruling who was nearby and clearly voiced some concern, but the ruling - which Seve did not inflence in any way whatsoever - stood; and Azinger then cracked away a tremendous 3 wood from the other side of the lake to a greenside bunker from where he got up and down. From what I overheard (I was standing about 20 yards away at the time) Seve felt that Azinger should have been required to drop fifty or sixty yards further back, effectively about 80 yards ahead of the tee, rather than where he did - on the left bank of the lake and with a clear, albeit very long, shot at the green.

Whatever; the facts are that Azinger hit a tremendous third shot and that Seve neither influenced the drop, nor did the end ruling in any way tally with Seve's opinion of what should have happened - at least according to what I overheard him saying, quite animatedly, to the other official. To say that the presiding rules official 'gave in' to Seve is absolutely wrong. He made a decision in isolation and totally uninfluenced by the Spaniard who was over 100 yards away at the time on the opposite side of a lake.

Not the person they are talking about , but.... didn't Arnie argue for and got very favorable ruling at Augusta one year in one of his wins?

Then Azinger flat out lied in that part of his book.

Basically, his ball plugged in the fringe on the 12th green. He played to balls, one from the plugged lie, one from clean lie after a drop. He made a 5 from the plugged lie and a 3 from the clean lie. He consulted a rules official afterwards and the official told him he was entitled to take a drop and thus his score of 3 was correct. It's been 60 years or so since that Masters and Ken Venturi still hasn't gotten over that incident.

I haven't read Azinger's book.

But, as far as I'm concerned, my memory of the incident is 100% clear. And, not to question Azinger, but I was a lot closer to Seve than he was whilst he was busy sorting out that drop.

I'd be interested to read a paraphrasing of Azinger's account because, unless he's referring to conversation that took place between him and Seve on the tee or on the immediate walk from it, I can't imagine what he's talking about when Seve supposedly flexed his reputation and browbeat anyone. After a brief conversation ahead of the tee, Seve marched off over the small bridge to the right of the tee with his caddy, and Azinger went to the end of the hazard, had a discussion with the rules official, pointed out a few lines of flight, and then went off to the opposite side of the hole - effectively into the trees to the right of the 9th fairway.

Seve went straight to his ball, mulled over the slightly cuppy lie with a face like thunder, and then watched from afar - before making a few objections to a nearby rules official after he saw Azinger preparing to drop a few minutes later in a place that Ballesteros clearly felt was wrong. The official did a good job of looking like a witness in a murder trial being badgered by an overbearing defence barrister and effectively shrugged his shoulders. Without further ado, Azinger then cracked a 3 wood under the limbs and to the green side, and Seve, looking a bit flustered, thinned a 3 iron into the pond.

If that differs, factually, from what Azinger's written in his autobiography, one of us is wrong. Whether it amounts to wilful lying, getting a few facts muddled, or whether there's a certain spin that's being read into Azinger's account by the reader I don't know. I'll have to read the book and make up my own mind, but one of the latter two would be my first guess.

I'll be the first to go on record as saying that Seve has occasionally been 'creative' in his dealings with rules officials, but he certainly isn't the first big name golfer, nor the last, to use a bit of artistic license in his dealings with officials. I've seen other golfers swearing, hand on heart, that their intention is to hit a high draw with a 3 iron from that bird's nest of a lie, under the limbs of the gorse bush, and then swing it with a 50 yard draw around and over the trees to the green - and therefore be fully deserving of a line of sight drop because of the three-foot-high advertising hoarding that's 50 yards ahead and thus in the way. Seve perhaps tried it on more often than most, but is it cheating? Is it the same thing as changing a score on a score card or moving a ballmarker?

Whether you love Seve or loath him, and whether your opinion of his legendary gamesmanship is that it's a cheeky trait that has its groundings in the fiercely competitive nature of the man, or that it's in poor form; the above post is simply to address a point that was raised earlier in this thread - about an incident involving Seve in the '89 Ryder Cup. Having been there in person, and having witnessed much of what happened, it seemed only fair to relate what I remember of it all - given that there's a loose suggestion that Ballesteros may have acted improperly. As is often the case around Ryder Cup time, it's very easy for recollections to become clouded.

This is what you are talking about.

http://www.ucgc.org/2004/05-08_paradise_va...controversy.htm

My recollection of that from TV coverage is the same as mat. Seve was not happy with the ruling.

Anyway, even if what Zinger said was true, it is not cheating on Seve's part.

There's a pretty big difference between getting a favorable/wrong decision from a rules official and "cheating" in my mind.

I'll have to go back and re-read that part of his book. He talked about that particular match in detail and there was another situation earlier in the round involving some controversy over another drop. I could be completely wrong on both situations. I'll check it out.

Yeeah, I'm not debating that. I'm just trying to remember the scenario behind Azinger's drop on 18. I believe his version of events is different.

Boy I hope the golf gods don't strike me down for mentioning Seve. I just threw his name out and again thought that some may have had an opinion about his gamesmanship (especially some journalist who doesn't have the guts to put a name down).

So to save my golf game I will retract my Seve comment.

The Guardian is one of the worst British papers, very left wing and I imagine almost anti-Golf. I wouldn't use it as a replacement for Andrex and don't know of one Golfer who buys the pseudo socialist rag.
Vijay was caught cheating. Period. Hence he is not as revered in the game as his record should dictate. Never heard anything about G P but find him odious, pompous and self righteous.
Was there not an issue about Tom Watson's irons having way too many grooves but the R&A let it stand in case US players boycotted The Open?

He is quite revered.

???????????????????????
This must be one of the strangest things I've ever read on this site. I won't even mention names of other British newspapers, but at least four or five that are really bad come to mind at once. Not only is the Guardian generally accepted around the world as one of the world's best newspapers in any language, it also has good golf coverage.
The political bias of medium does not have anything to do with its quality. If you judge a paper by the fact that the political views of the editor are not your own, you live in a pretty small world.
Oh, and by the way, now you know "one Golfer", who buys the Guardian, the weekend edition, every week. And I do not even live in the uK, and English isn't even my first language.

Yeah. Ken Ventri won't let us forget.


Absolutely. We live and die by the rules and the rulings. Even wrong rulings. Look at how many blown calls you have in other sports. It's part of the game. Cheating is different.

-mini

I was unaware of this aspect of Player. I found this post on The Sand Trap. I have no idea how to validate its authenticity though.

I happened to play the Tour during Gary's heyday, and there were rumors about his 'bending' the rules all over the place. Many players, not just Watson, knew of his ability to create or improve lies to benefit his performance. Though Peter Kessler did a fairly extensive interview on the Golf Channel with video of the incident at the '74 Open Championship (where Rabbit Dyer found Player's ball seconds before he would have had to declare it lost), nothing definitive was ever produced to disprove his credibility. However, if you watch the video, on the next hole (the 18th and 72nd hole of the championship), Player clearly cheated when his ball came to rest next to the clubhouse. Forced to play a shot left-handed with his putter, he took an initial address over the ball and then looked to the gallery on the roof and asked them to be still so that their shadows didn't distract him. Then, he addressed the ball again, and made a mock practice stroke....an exaggeratedly long stroke, that moved about an inch of soil directly behind the ball in the process. There is no denying this one, as it is as plain as the nose on his face. This improved his lie considerably, and he should have been given a two stroke penalty. To me, that kind of infraction is so obvious to those of us in the profession, it clearly brings the lost ball back into question. I have my doubts, and fear that Rabbit did plant it.

http://thesandtrap.com/swing_thoughts/he_cheated

Anyone who cheats, Major Champions included, is missing one the main points of playing golf. They will never get the most of out the game and that is penalty enough.

unfortunately its not.... when you cheat in golf you also cheat others... there is no penalty severe enough to punish that...

That is a fascinating account which I never knew about...

I always knew I didnt like something about Gary though. The guy seems like a cocky old baffoon.

Now that is a clever rip. I'd never heard it.

Also, kudos for singling out The Guardian. I'm now a big fan.

I would strongly disagree with most of that. The Guardian is left leaning but that does not make it one of the worst papers. On the contrary, compared to the right wing Daily Mail, the Guardian is a magnificent beacon of truth and decency. Nor is it anti-golf. I sometimes read it, so now you know one golfer who does. And I am not a socialist, pseudo or otherwise.

Gary Player's antics, most recently the Watson-Player issue are notorious and he is almost certanly the subject of this story. I agree that many find him a dick.

BUt was Palmer's incident a blown ruling in the way you are describing? If I recall the accounts of the incident, Palmer found his ball plugged, and without being instructed by an official, decided he would take a drop, play two balls and find out what score he could use. Was this the accepted practice at the time? I know i've played a few tournaments where they've indicated to play 2 balls and get a ruling, but that was at a club championship.

I've had plenty negative opinions about Venturi in the past, but it would seem to me that if dropping a second ball to get a ruling later was the tournament's instruction for these situations, someone else would have shut Venturi up quickly. I have a hard time believing Palmer didn't know exactly what he was doing by dropping the second ball, and then having 2 scores and the knowledge of what each one would mean to the tournament's results by the time someone came in to review and make a ruling. He pretty much decided he was dropping the second ball. I don't believe a rules official instructed him to do so(which would make it more in line with what I think you are trying to say). Palmer essentially decided what he was going to do, and then dare someone to tell him he was wrong. Not, IMHO, the right to go about it.

It not only WAS the proper ruling, but it still IS the proper ruling...with the exception of, I believe, how the two balls are played. Presently, we play both simultaneously. Back then (as I believe Palmer did), you played out, then went back and holed out another ball.

Even on the PGA Tour they can do this. Since it's a rule of golf that you can't "waive" a rule of golf...rule 3-something (3-1?) states that you can play both balls and go to the committee with your results for a ruling.

-mini

Palmer cheated by not declaring his intention to play a second ball until after had played his original ball.
The only players I've seen cheat are Singh at the Masters and at the Presidents Cup. And Stewart Cink at Harbour Town.

Really, I've never heard - can you provide the stories?

Vijay Singh took an illegal drop at the 11th hole of the 2000 Masters as well as the 2000 Presidents Cup.
Stewart Cink improved his lie in a waste bunker during a playoff at Harbour Town, 2004. In Cink's case PGA Tour Official Slugger White made an error by not traveling to Cink's ball to give a Ruling. After viewing a post round replay, White covered up his mistake and Cink shamefully went along with the charade. That one was a low point in PGA Tour history.

hmmm, I never knew - searching google for both the masters and presidents cup incidents, the only thing that really came up on point was a post of yours about the same thing. Any chance that he was mistaken as to the place? I mean I dont care to defend cheaters and wahtnot if he did it, but it seems to be somehting kept very low on the radar if indeed he did cheat.

Which player are you asking about Singh or Cink ?