Is there anyone here with experience in a rational process for determining when to change to 'summer rules'. Here in NC our fairways are Bermuda (which is still 98% dormant) with overseeded rye in the winter. This was not a good year for the ryegrass, and even in good years the level of overseeding is really more to give the fairways a green look from an oblique angle than anything else.

Right now the fairways are probably less playable than any time in the last 6 months because the old rye is very patchy and and really just creates low places for the ball to rest rather than creating playable lies. Of course the dormant bermuda, to allow the rye to grow, is almost scalped to the ground level. The fairways would be much more playable right now if they had never been overseeded at all (but they would also be dirt brown, of course).

So I'm fishing around for experience in how other clubs make this determination. In principle this would be a decision made by club maintenance or the head pro, but since the members complained so much in the past about the correctness of the decision they abdicated this to us.

Thanks.

dave

Are we playing golf or are we just screwing around on a golf course?

If we're playing golf, we play it down.

-mini

"Winter Rules" is cheating no matter what time of year.

The Rules of Golf does allow casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Those two rules are adequate to help the player when course conditions are wet from rain.

Other than casual water or embedded ball, play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating.

It definitely depends on what condition the fairways are in, but I think ultimately it is left up to the Superintendent or Greens Committee as for when to start playing Sumer Rules. Our fairways aren't in the greatest shape now and we're rolling them.

There is no such thing as winter rules

Wowza...we got a tough guy in our midst!!

Yes, The Rules of Golf allow relief from casual water or an embedded ball. And yes, those rules are adequate to allow a golf course to be playable when conditions are wet from rain.

I wonder if you're from a warm-weather climate? When you get the odd round in while playing in a cold-weather climate during February, and the first few rounds in the spring, course conditions can closely resemble, well, a cow pasture. Dead from winterkill, etc. I've got no problem playing it down, but sometimes it gets frustrating trying to hit from mud, especially when your game may not be at it's best due to a long, golf-less winter.

To the OP...my group quits bumping as soon as the mowers are out, which was a good while ago, even here in Utah.

Most early-season UGA tournaments around here even play "Lift, Clean, and Place" in the fairway until about mid-April. Course conditions can be pretty nasty early on.

I am well aware of the fact that the ROG have no definition of "winter rules", "lift/clean/place", "preferred lies", etc. I am also aware that the USGA Handicap Manual clearly accepts these as realities of the golf world (see section 7-1) and no less than the PGA Tour will play preferred lies under some conditions.

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

dave

So, all you guys whom say no such thing as winter rules....
that means your playing a sloppy/winter skins match , announced - OK to clean your mud balls, you won't ? ! Yeh, Right !

Now, for recording your scores for index... that's another thing.

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

-mini

I hope that your team-mates are of above average tolerance and basically nice guys. While you are proudly displaying your holier-than-thou attitude, hitting ball-after-ball out of all manner of crappy lies, they are getting screwed by your refusal to play by the same rules as the rest of the field in the compeition.

dave

wow, tough guys on the rules of golf... Here in Md with dormant bermuda we roll in fairway , down in rough. Everyone has the same option , in the blitz , So it's fair as far as i'm concerned. Get this BOYZ, we even rake and place, OH THE SHAME !!!! Handicap systems been down all winter so no scores posted, cheating i like that

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

dave

The only time we play something close to winter rules, is in the brief time after aeration before it heals - and it has to be the large tines, not the micro ones.

I know you got pissed before about people saying winter rules is crap - but winter rule in NC - cmon what does it get to, 40, 30 on occasion in the winter

It is hardly a temperature thing. Bermuda goes to totally dead at temps that are quite comfortable. If they wouldn't overseed IMHO the fairways would remain quite playable all year as dormant bermuda is fine (although 6 months of unhealed divots is ALOT of divots). But they literally scalp the fairways to nothing, then overseed just enough to make things worse (but prettier).

dave

LOL - don't you hate when they do that sh!t for no reason

Anyways, if it as bad as you describe, then I suppose until the course starts to heal again - good luck

Dave, I am assuming you are playing the Pinehurst courses, I just played nr 2 today and the fairways are in great shape and I played everything down with no problems. Nr 4 is still very thin but 1 and 6 are in great shape. I haven't played 3 or 5 in two weeks. I wish they would let things go dormant as well and do away with the overseeding but the resort wants things pretty.

I'm in NC. It's currently 21 degrees, the wind is blowing 30-40 and it's snowing. 6-8 inches since last night. Oh, and the courses around here have been closed since late October. No winter rules here since we can't play.

There are a couple private clubs around me that keep "winter rules" in effect all season long.

Personally, I only touch my ball between the tee and the hole if it is embedded. Anything more and something just doesn't feel right in me. Anytime some sort of rules question comes into effect like that, I always think to myself "I bet Bobby Jones didn't do this in his day."

Yeah - right now 2 is pretty good and 6 is not bad. 4 was REALLY thin 10 days ago - but that was 10 days ago. 10 days of warmer weather (but still too cold for bermuda to do much) will sometimes make things better - often makes it worse. 1/3/5 are further behind.

dave

Wow, you kinda spanked me there - make sure to wear your sweater!!!


While I don't personally like winter rules either, Bobby Jones didn't have 150-300 hacks tearing up a course per day

Yikes! The bile is flowing freely. Time for another Rodney King posting...

Sounds like not many people play water/mud golf like those of us in the NW. I try to play the ball down as much as possible, but after 1 round of hitting balls covered in mud, leading to me being covered in mud even on my hat, I asked myself why I was inlicting myself pain. We can only post from March until early November though. But with our wonderfull rain followed by more rain, our courses just can't keep up in the spring. Go ahead and call me a cheater, but my 15 HC isn't getting me anywhere hitting balls covered in mud. If I can barely tell that it is mine in the middle of the fairway. I go ahead and wipe it on the grass and place it right back down where I found it. I can't wait for the summer so I can actually get a round in without 10 pounds of mud on my clothes and shoes.

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"
i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

The Rules of Golf permit embedded ball relief from anywhere outside of a hazard.
The Rules also permit relief from casual water if the water affects the players ball or stance.
These two Rules are adequate to allow fair and reasonable play during adverse weather and, or, poor course conditions.

Now, some guys might not like playing with a golf ball that has dirt or mud on it, or playing from a less than good grass lie, but that's their problem. The Rules do permit the player to clean his ball once it's on the putting surface. And bad lies are part of the game.

Very few places that are 0 degrees have ground soft enough for the ball to either plug or not run.

I see. You didn't really want someone to tell you how they do it. You just wanted someone to agree with you and you didn't get that. I understand now.

-mini

As a Canuck (did I spell that right?) he probably means Celsius.

-mini

Ian...

We play nearly year round in Chicago. We play in the 20's (-3 to -5C) all the time. If a ball is embedded in it's pitch mark we do move it...per the rules of the game. Our fairways, even at the nicer courses that are open, are rather skanky as you can imagine as there in no maintenance. In the rough, good luck. But we figure if you hit it there you should deal with the consequences of an erred shot.

If you're talking about scoring a round for handicap purposes, there is an "off season" for some parts of the country/world. In Chicago our off-season runs from approximately November 1 to April 1. Despite that, we play it as it lies. You learn to hit some interesting shots that way!

Agree w/me?? Agree w/what??

I just want to understand how clubs that make a transition from winter to summer rules decide when to do that. I don't know how my question could have been more clear.

dave

Dave...

Politely, you won't find a section in the Rules of Golf that covers "winter rules." It doesn't exist. If your club has "Local Rules", then they need to provide the parameters of when and how.

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

Yep - and this whole discussion revolves around our weekly Men's Golf Association competitions run by the MGA Board of which I am a member. And we are looking for input as to how to make a reasonable decision that is somewhat better than "so-and-so thinks".

I do believe that this is called a "full circle". :-)

dave

Dave...

Having run a few events myself experience says whatever you choose to do is going to make 50% of the people PO'd regardless. Under that scenario, do what you think is right and fair and expect the criticism.

Not sure you're going to find much better opinions but I hope so. Sounds like you're trying to do your best...

Our committee (such as it is) generally makes the decision on when to suspend winter rules based on three characteristics-is there a high probability that there will not be a need to use temporary greens due to frost/snow/ice on regular greens, are the fairways generally acceptable-dry enough, minimal standing water, ruts, mud, properly mowed, etc and are the greens in generally acceptable condition.

Of course we have a suspended posting season up here-so we have local rules that allow for "preferred lies"-our groups, as a general rule, suspend this practice as soon as posting season opens-regardless of whether or not the course has suspended winter rules. There are exceptions (temporary greens being one).

Thanks - I guess that our situation is not the norm here. You truly could make a good case for no winter rules at all except on really wet/sloppy days. You could easily play 18 holes without encountering a single, really bad fairway lie.

OTOH, what they have done is to scalp the bermuda fairways last fall down to literally nothing (bermuda is totally dormant from late fall to mid-spring). The overseeding is really pretty light (which is helpful when the bermuda recovers in the spring). So while in your 18 holes you might not encounter any really bad fairway lies, it is quite likely that every lie that you encounter is basically playing off hardpan. The high handicappers in particular really struggle off these lies. The chances of your ball ending on rye in a lie that you would call a good lie is very small, but you can always find one.

Back in 2004 they did not overseed No. 2 prior to the 2005 US Open. I was astounded at how much easier No. 2 fairways played all winter that year vs. the other courses.

dave

For completeness this is what is going to happen. What brings to a head is that ...

1) This has been an exceptionally difficult winter from an overseeded fairways perspective. Basically the overseeding (while making things greener) also made things more difficult far in excess of previous years (the rye comes up spotty and mostly just makes little "tea cups" for the ball to sit inside). The underlying bermuda has been scalped to within a micro-inch of its life.

2) This week (and next) is our Men's Golf Association match play tournament which is more important and also creates "T scores" in our handicap database. So we've got additional pressure in "both directions" regarding how to play this tournament.

So two of us have gone out (or will go out) on 3 holes of the relevant courses and will do the following.

1) We will pick the driver landing area and throw out a dozen balls. Then we (both having similar games with good, but not exceptional drives in the 240-250 yard range, and mid to high single digit indexes) will look at the lies from the following perspective. Assume that we wanted to hit a 3w second shot from those lies on a par 5 and were facing a forced carry of 165 yards (3w carry for both of us is 205-215 yards from fairway lies, a tad more off a tee). Would we change clubs?

2) Throw out a dozen balls in areas 5 to 30 yards in front of the greens. Then assume that we wanted to hit 'soft LW'es' of 20 or so yards from those lies. Not "Phil M. full swing, slide the club under the ball, wide open face, only carry it 20 yard shots', but slightly open face, a little soft/higher than normal LW shots. Again the criteria was would we be able to do this or have to change our desired strategy because of the lie.

We'll average the two and if the 'change clubs' answer comes up change 1/3 or more of the time, it is lift/clean/place.

So Tuesday's competition on course No. 6 is play it down. Wednesday play on No. 5 is to be evaluated this afternoon. Given the forecast (1-3 inches of rain overnight and more rain possible on Tuesday) we might be playing lift/clean/place regardless.

dave

Dave,
Sounds like a sensible, fair approach. Good luck with the tournament.