Have you ever played a 'famous' course that seems to have a glowing reputation, only to seriously wonder what all the fuss is about? Just in the interest of a civilized discussion of courses that fall into this category, I'm wondering which ones fall into this category for you - please, no ugliness or flaming, just civilized opinions...

For me, two courses come to mind...

1. Harbour Town - I used to vacation in Hilton Head, and of all the courses I played there over the years, not only was it in BY FAR the worst condition of any, but I found it closer to a goofy-golf experience than a true shotmaking test. I shot a 74 from the tips, and didn't really play that great, with 3 three-putts on the unbelievably slow greens. So I came away very underwhelmed, and certain to never go back.

2. Pinehurst #2 - this course obviously has a stellar reputation and history. I played it several years ago, between US Open visits, and while it was a very difficult course because of the upside-down bowl-shaped greens, from tee to green I felt it was just very mundane at best. While I thought it was ok, I certainly wouldn't rush back or drop significant dollars to play it again. It's rated #1 in NC, and I recently got to play the #2 course in NC in a CGA event - Old North State Club. To me there is no comparison between the two. Old North State was a fabulous layout in every respect - it was trememdously challenging tee to green, incredible greens, and incredible views on the course, particular the 3 finishing holes that border Badin Lake. So to me, the #1 ranking for Pinehurst #2, just doesn't ring true, but that's just my opinion. I will say that the Opens played there have been very interesting because of the shaved slopes and the short game challenges it presents. But overall, I just don't see it being that great.

Obviously these are just my opinions, and I think it would be interesting to hear yours....

Sacrilege, I know, but if I'm being honest, the Old Course at St Andrews probably tops my list of courses that turned out to be a Britney's Whatsit.

Yes, the first tee is an experience a bit like meeting royalty, and the 17th and 18th have your tummy rumbling as you play them, but the rest of the course? If it wasn't for the fact it's where it is and what it is you'd be asking for a refund. I'll say it: there are many better links courses in the world than St Andrews. Turnberry's Ailsa course and Royal Troon knock it into a cocked hat. The first time I played there was a fantastic experience - mainly due to a very personable R&A member with whom I was fortunate enough to play - but the actual course was far from awe-inspiring. I've played it a few times since and warmed to it slightly more each time though; and the atmosphere of the town is always something very special when you visit.

The Brabazon Course at the Belfry is perhaps another one for me. After seeing it on TV in numerous Ryder Cups I finally got a chance to play it a dozen years or so back and, if I'm honest, wasn't bowled over. Apologies to Peter Alliss and Dave Thomas, but apart from a couple or three excellent holes (10, and 18 in particular) the rest of it wasn't as fantastic as I'd assumed it would be. Great condition, and a great experience, but a lot of the holes had a 'manufactured' look about them and looked as if they'd basically been plonked in the middle of some potato fields and had some saplings planted about the place to break things up a bit. Which, if we're honest, is pretty much what was done there. Not that it's a bad course. It's not. But I have to be honest and say I felt slightly flat afterwards. No doubt 20-odd thousand cheering fans would make all the difference, but I only had a couple of teammates for company and never did get to quaff champagne on the clubhouse roof afterwards.

Those are the exceptions though and, of the 'top drawer' courses I've been lucky enough to play in my time, they all turned out to be everything I'd expected them to be. Wentworth, Sunningdale and Hillside perhaps stand out as the best for me. And, contrary to a lot of people, I put St Mellion at the very top of the tree.

Amen, brutha. I thought I was the only one that was really disappointed in PH #2. No memorable holes to me, just the next one that looked just like the last one. Played a couple of courses there that were alot more fun/memorable. And I'm no hack, in case someone starts the "well, maybe you're not good enough to appreciate it". Shot 76 with a bunch of 3-putts.

You can have Habortown all day long, even in the best condition. I curious as to what time of year y'all played number 2? Also it's a totally different place when the fairways are brought in for tournament play. Still not my favorite Ross, Biltmore Forest in Asheville. But I wasn't disappointed. I guess it helps when your only paying for the caddie. JMHO.

It was mid-May when I played PH #2. It was in good condition then. I just found it to be very uninspiring, even with all the history and tradition, which I thought was pretty cool. The course itself was a letdown though, to me.

Contrast that with Valhalla GC, which received lots of negative press around the '96 PGA. I've played it several times, and I'd have to rank it in the top 3 of all courses I've played. Even got to play it the day after the '00 PGA in the media event, a great treat!

Whenever people come to visit me here in Oahu, Hawaii, they always want to play Turtle Bay as it is the most famous course. I generally try to steer them away from it because I feel it is overpriced and generally unremarkable, except for two holes on the back nine. I try to get them to go to Ko olau as it is truly a golf experience like no other. Just my 2 centavos.

I'm a relative newb, but I found Bethpage black a little bit overhyped. Don't get me wrong it is an awe-inspiring course and I had a great time playing it but I have to say the greens are surprisingly pedestrian and the superseeded rough is a little gimmicky IMO. As I recall, you could miss fairway by just a little bit but still be buried so deeply that you have no second shot other than chipping out. And you'd still need a bit of luck to find your ball even with your eye on it the whole time. Besides that it doesn't seem to require much shot-shaping, just a very high ball flight.

I have to agree with Mat on this one. I've always bemoaned to appeal of playing St.Andrews for a long while now and (rightly or wrongly) received criticism for it - usually from those who haven't actually played it.
I will concede to the aura of the "home of golf" thing, but as a course to play and enjoy - there are plenty better. The better money would be spent at Carnoustie if you're going to haul all your coals that far.
I also have to agree with the Belfry (Brabazon). It's the nearest thing to "conveyor belt" golf I've played in my life. It's a wonder people have time to stop and enjoy the "quirky" 10th hole and the Seve plaque. An annoying golfing, dining, hotel experience. Again, the better money would be spent travelling to Woodhall Spa. Two of the best course's I've played.

Fair enough, I grew up playing in the area and I picture golf courses looking that way. To each his own. That had to be pretty sweet to get to play Valhalla the day after the PGA. As for St. Andrews, I have visited but never played, but as I heard someone say as they walked off "I just played a 600 year old muni". Still going to go play it next summer because I am a silly American that loves that kinda stuff.

From my personal experience, I have found one that stands out head and shoulders above the rest in this capacity- Doral's Blue Monster. For the life of me I cannot see the appeal. Aside from holes 8, 10, and 18, there is nothing remotely memorable about this track. And even that it pushing it. Throw in the fact that this "privilege" will set you back $250 for a five hour round I just as soon drive a few hours in ANY direction to find something a bit more worthy of that admission...

Mat and jaskanski, not in a million years would I have suggested something as blasphemous as that but I'm afraid you two are indeed onto something. Having played The Old Course, Troon, Turnberry and Carnoustie I can relate to your experiences. Save for the 1st, 17th and 18th, nothing of note truly stands out. To be fair it was more than just the golf for my two brothers and my father that day. An incredible, incredible experience- nonetheless you two bring up a very good point...

Have mercy on me...

Although not a famous course, La Cantera in San Antonio comes to mind. I used to live a few miles from there and felt it was overpriced and gimmicky. There are a lot of better course in that area, in my opinion at least...

I was wondering if the Blue Monster might be on someone's list! I played it twice, on back-to-back days in the mid 90's, the Tuesday and Wednesday after the Doral Open. I have to say that the course, and the greens in particular, were in spectacular condition. I really enjoyed playing it, probably mostly from knowing the pros had just been there (the year I played was the year Freddie blew his back out on the range before the tournament started - not sure what year that was). I can certainly see how it could be seen as overrated - pretty flat, many nondescript holes, etc. The thing that got me the most was that #18 just really doesn't seem to be that tough of a hole, compared to many others I've played - plenty of bail-out room. I've played many holes where bail-outs are not nearly so easy! I think the greens fees were $160 when I played it, and that was as a hotel guest - I didn't have to pay for the first day, but I did the second - I wouldn't have paid that fee to play there twice, much less $250!

i had the good fortune of playing turtle bay's palmer course a good number of times, and i thought it was a fine course. but, i agree far short from awe inspiring. i wouldn't think of paying full freight for it, that's for sure. but, i can't see anyone being really disappointed by it. what surprised me was how similar it was to many courses i've played on the mainland. i was just surprised that given it's location, it didn't reflect hawaii or the ocean more. as for me, i loved kahuku, that place felt like the north shore of oahu.

as for my heretical addition to the list; pebble. i've not actually played it, but i've walked it and 'experienced' it a number of times. undoubtedly, there are a few world class holes, but there are weak ones, too. but, what gets me are the houses and what not. for a course that old and 'special' they've ruined it with 'development'. they do a good job on tv of not shooting that stuff (same goes for harbour town), but in person it's really in your face. and given the price, i think it's a joke.

great thread.

I agree completely. I think Pebble is maybe the most overrated courses I have played especially if you consider the price people pay to play there. Some of the ocean side holes are spectacular but other than #14 which I think is a good hole with a great green but the rest of the inland holes are average at best. Its not even in my top 25 or even close.

I agree with everything you said re: Turtle Bay. It is by no means a bad course. The conditions were great when I played there. And a few of the holes are indeed memorable. My expectations were probably too high when I played it. I would / will probably play there again, if I get a nice discount first though.

There is a course in the Raleigh NC area that hosts the SAS Championship annually (Champions Tour) named Prestonwood. It is actually 3 courses but overall, just nothing that you would expect out of place that hosts a golf tournament. A decent track but nothing overly exciting.

I played Pebble and thought it was un believable. I watched in on TV for years and knew everyhole. I was estatic to be there and thought the course was spectacular. I like old style courses and Pebble did it for me. I also tend to appreciate course from an archictecture standpoint and Pebble is a true classic imo. Even the 1st hole which a lot of people say is a ho hum type of starting hole is a good hole, its not the most difficult, but its a good one.

I am 100% into old style courses, I do not usually even bother with newer courses. My focus when I play a course is completely on the architecture and I just do not see it with Pebble. Other than the ocean being right there it is just not that good imo. There are many many many old style courses that are much better imo.

Ive had this expereince before in Myrtle Beach.

Its not a course that hosts a PGA event, but it seems that every Myrtle Beach "Must Play" list mentions Tidewater.

I played it in the fall a few years ago, and payed a premium to do so.

The course was nothing special, the grounds were unkept and I thought the facilty was out of date and the staff was sub-par.

I would much rather use the extra money to play Caledonia or Tru Blue.

Congressional cc in Bethesda - over rated. up and back, up and back. nice trees, great fairways. rich history. boring... Apparently the usopen/etc... is built from both courses there together, so you can't technically play that course... i think the tiger is just on the blue or the gold. i can't remember. anyway, i can only remember 2 holes. #1 and #18. want some outstanding courses in northern virginia/dc/md area? pretty much every review on golfwrx i've seen was right on! whiskey creek, falls road on the cheap, etc...

J, you are officially off my golf speed-dial.

i had the same experience with Tidewater when i played it a couple years after it opened and it was mega-hyped as the best new public course in the country. the problems it has remind me a lot of what people are saying about pebble. a few amazing holes along the water and then just decent everywhere else. i'm not a huge fan of True Blue but i have always thought Caledonia was one of the best experiences in Myrtle. I wont say its one of the greatest courses in the world, but i think it's the most interesting and beautiful down there. glad its finally starting to get its due lately.

I agree that Harbortown is overrated. For me, it would be Shaker Run outside Cinci. Played it several times and I do not get the almost universal rave reviews about that place. Poor conditioning.

I agreee on Shaker.

I just moved from Cincinnati, and played Shaker Run quite frequently.

I always played it on a special, never paid full price - certianly not worth it.

I think the appeal of that course comes from the fact that it is the most accesable, championship grade course in the area. It held the womens amateur there a couple years ago, hosts many pro-ams, cherity tournaments, etc. Certainly not on par with Maqatewa or Rivers Bend TPC, but those are private. There are many much better courses in the area for the money.

Coming in a little late to this discussion, but wanted to add my thoughts.

I've yet to play Pinehurst #2, or any Donald Ross for that matter, so this is purely speculation, however in my 40 years of golfing, I have noticed that there are courses that are very much underwhelming at first visit, but after repeat plays, some of the subtleties start to become more apparent and a greater appreciation is gradually acheived.

I've noted that many people comment that after playing Ross courses that they wonder what's the big deal. In fact it seems that Ross' so called masterwork, Pinehurst #2, is often mentioned as a course that is overrated. The Old Course at St. Andrews is another example.

I think that with modern courses, designers are more dependent on eye catching visual features that generate oohs and aahs, and make nice photographs, but really have little to do with the playability of the course. After being bludgeoned with all this visual overload, our senses start to become dulled.

I see a parallel with music. I've noticed that many times I will hear a catchy pop tune that I instantly like, however after repeat listens, the appeal quickly diminishes to the point where I gradually don't want to even hear it anymore. It seems that a lot of "pop" music has this sort of throw-away appeal. By contrast, some of my favorite music that I can listen to over and over includes stuff that I might not have even cared for on first listen. As an example: Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. When I first heard it I wondered what was the big deal, why was this album so highly considered? Now it is one of my favorite albums.

Great literature, music, and film sometime take a little effort to wrap your head around whereas art that is easily accessible seems to fade more quickly.

I wonder if the same exists with golf course architecture ?

Excellent post. I agree 100%. Additionally, I think the appreciation of a course will change based on your skill level. Too often, I've felt short changed by playing off the mid-handicap (often white in color) tees. It is where I'm supposed to play from, but some courses eliminate all of the strategy and fun by altering the setting of the tee boxes. Sometimes a forced carry or a more difficult angle of approach is what the fundamental design is all about but a forward tee could take that out of play to ease traffic flow, for example.

Wow. I never thought jazz music would get used as an analogy for golf course design. Quick joke - What's the difference between jazz music and rock music? A - rock music is largely 3 chords played in front of thousands of people - jazz music is thousands of chords played in front of 3 people.

I can see what you mean though - a bit like how your palate matures and appreciates whisky and blue cheese maybe - nasty the first time but you get to like it in the long run.
Well yes, I can certainly see the nuance theory as far as St.Andrews is concerned. I've played it twice and still don't like though. I doubt if playing it a further 10 times would enhance my appreciation for it, let alone get to love it. The design of the course is largely unknown though (mother nature?) and I don't think anyone would deliberately design a course that dour. It's not an exciting course - but that's just my opinion and no-one can convince me otherwise. That is, after all, the whole point of calling out on the Emperor's new clothes.

For me it is Torrey Pines South. I played it before the recent redesign, so maybe that has changed things. However, when I played, it was long, straight and fairly boring. Sure, the couple of holes that played alongside the ocean had good views, but it really didn't come into play.

Bay Harbor is another course on potentially fantastic ground with a lot of movement right on lake Michigan, but pretty blah result.

Pinehurst #2. Not sure about this. The course wasn't all that memorable on most holes due to the non-descript driving challenges. However, placement off the tee is emphasized in order to get a good second shot. I have played other Ross Courses (e.g., French Lick) and liked them more.

Pebble: I was very excited to play this course. Not a big fan of the first hole, but otherwise, I remember most of my round there, so would have to say this met my expectations.

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+1

Gimmicky is a perfect description. I had to hit a hybrid from the blue tees on 3-4 holes. Too many blind holes, too. I think it got voted lamest course on tour in last month's Golf Digest.

steve- not a big fan of Bay Harbor? Which nines did you play? I thought it was a pretty good track- loved the quarry nine. No worries though- I respect your opinion...

On a different note, have you played Arcadia Bluffs? Love that place- bit of a drive for me however...

I played the Quarry and the nine on the lake. I liked some of the holes, but thought there was so much more it could have been.

Played Arcadia two falls ago. I liked it quite a bit; however, the pace of play was lacking. Unfortunately, I would rate it 3rd on the courses I played that trip behind Crystal Downs and Kingsley Club. Talk about two fantastic tracks!

Certainly heard of Crystal Downs- not so much Kingsley Club. Both look stunning...

I used to go to Hilton Head for a week every summer and have played many courses there including Harbortown a couple times. I'm not disputing previous posts but I enjoyed playing Harbortown. Finishing holes are great. Now that I've played it 2-3 times it's no longer worth the green fees with all the other courses in HH. Keeping greens in good shape in HH seems to be a challenge generally in the summer.

Disappointing to hear the Belfry is not up to much, seeing as I'm off there next weekend. Gah!

Agreed about St Andrews though. Always felt is was overrated!

Hogan...have you played the Great White at Doral? While agreeing with you that there are a couple of non-descript holes and it's not as nice tough as pre-hurricane, it's T-25 on my list.

What do you play in our area?

Dave- Only played The Blue Monster when I was down there. Just did not feel as if all the hype was warrented. You throw in the fact it was rather expensive, bordering on a 5 hour round, mats only at the range. All that would mean nothing had the course itself been something remotely memorable- but...not. To be fair, I also played The Bear's Club up in Jupiter that week so for comparison purposes- not even close...

Ive been lucky enough to play almost everywhere in the Chicagoland area. In the line of work I'm in, somebody is a member somewhere. I myself belong to a club about ten miles west of the city...

As far as public tracks- you name it, I've played it- thats the best part of being self-employed! Lots of golf! Surprisingly enough, I've never played anything up in Kohler even though its only a 1 1/2 hour drive or so from Chicago. Certainly need to hit that soon...

What else do you enjoy in the Miami area?

It is good to hear there are others who think Pebble Beach is overrated. 3 good holes and the rest are just ho, hum.

Pinehurst #2 was brutal. I played it the same day that the final round of the North/South amateur was being played. I shot 78 on greens that were about a 15...according to my caddie. I left thinking that I was glad that I have played it, but I enjoyed #8 a whole lot more.

Honestly, the Copperhead Course at Innisbrook is a joke. I played it last year and I can't figure out why the PGA still plays on it? The Island Course is so much more challenging and more interesting.

I honestly enjoyed Bethpage Black, but I also got to play with the Super and we walked past the long line to go right to the first tee, in 2003. There was a line about 1.5 miles long waiting to get on and we all teed off to the cheer of everyone waiting.