Hi, just saw pat perez on the 15th hole in rough around the green addressing the ball several times with his wedge, the ball clearly moving up and down several times. I am an amateur player and not the most knowledgeable but are you allowed to move a ball at rest? i thought not. its not like i discovered some small movement i used my PVR to replay it and it moves at least 5 times? is that allowed?

If the ball moved and returned to its original position there is no penalty.

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downward
Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downward. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

I didn't see it, so I don't know if it changed position.

Kevin

I didn't think it was a problem

It looked like it returned to its original position.

i was wondering the same exact thing. i saw him address the ball on 2 different occasions and each time it clearly looked as though the ball moved, no matter how slightly... but the ball definitely moved in each case. i can't say definitely whether or not the ball only moved up and down back into its original place, and not left or right... in any case, i was surprised and immediately thought that was a penalty... but i'm not sure on the exact wording of the ruling...

Why the announcers didn't remark about it is amazing. It happened at least three or four times. How would you know if it returned to its exact, original location when he was moving it up and down like it was on a string? If that's not a rules violation, the rules should be changed, and the announcers ought to get out of bed with the players.

didn't see your post kevin... nice and too quick on the draw!

The ball didn't accidentally slip. He pressed down on the grass and moved it while addressing the ball-- multiple times -- and we all know tamping down grass behind the ball improves the lie, another rules violation. I hope no amateurs get the idea it's OK to deliberately act in a manner that moves your ball while addressing it. It's a stroke penalty. It will be interesting to see if this issue gets legs. You can bet tens of thousands of TV watchers saw it.

Where do you see accidently slipped. Calm down.

Kevin

I'm calm. Just out of curiosity, since the rule refers to a slip, don't you think it's absurd to think it's OK to yo-yo a ball up and down and say it slipped each time? I think we will hear a lot more about this in the next day or two. I have had playing partners do this many times in friendly games and have never said a word since it isn't worth a friendship, but if I was competing I definitely would.

I'm calm. Just out of curiosity, since the rule refers to a slip, don't you think it's absurd to think it's OK to yo-yo a ball up and down and say, "Oops, it slipped again!" each time? I think we will hear a lot more about this in the next day or two. I have had playing partners do this many times in friendly games and have never said a word since it isn't worth a friendship, but if I was competing I definitely would.

Read the rule. Either it changed position or it didn't. I didn't see it, as I said. Nobody cares what you THINK the rule should be, it's posted in black and white. Make the determination from there.

Kevin

After rewatching it, the ball did move, but I would say that it returned to the original position. The camera was focused so closely on the ball that it was like looking at it through a microscope. To the naked eye from normal height I would doubt if you would see that the ball moved, and only Perez would have possibly noticed. And it did appear to return to its original position.

You sound like me more and more everyday haha

Yeah, one sentence uses the word "slip" and the other uses the word "accidentally." This was a deliberate act done while addressing the ball. Read the black and white rule about a ball moving while addressing. As for your nasty personal comments about not caring about my opinion, what's the purpose of this discussion board, Mr. Black and White?

USGA Definition:

Move or Moved
A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

It raised my eyebrows for sure. I thought he improved the lie by pressing down on the grass behind the ball.

Nasty, personal comments?

Now I understand, your opinion is valid and I should keep mine to myself. Sorry, I missed that in the rules...

Kevin

That was what i thought i saw...?...the ball appeared to be sitting slightly higher at one point after tamping down the wedge repeatedly....it was asif the grass got fluffed up slightly by the action.
Whether it came to rest or not in exact same spot i do not know...but why during the open did they constantly zoom in on putting when windy and caution players not to address it yet in this tourney..in this incident the announcers didnt even mention a word..at very least they should have addressed the rules and commented it was a risky thing...but not a puff....but i did hear rich learner tell a fishing story, a what perez ate for breakfast interview and a what color socks was kelly tilghman wearing........i joke...alot of commercials...inane talking filler....and yet they missed even a comment on this? 3 holes to go and a ball moving up and down....no comment?

This confused me a bit too. The ball moved even if it was only a fraction of a fraction of an inch.....and maybe it even ended up in the same spot but it would be hard to tell with all the grass moving (puching down) that he was doing.

I was under the impression it was up to the player - if the player feels the ball did not move, it didn't move.

That is also different than whether or not he improved his lie. I didn't see it, but if he was tamping down grass around the ball, that is a no-no as well, regardless of whether or not the ball moved.

Or do I have it wrong?

As far as I could tell, it was part of his pre-shot, waggle, routine- prior to the playing of his chip. IMO , he did not improve his lie and his ball was in its prior position...

I watched it a few times and here is my description of it.....

Ball was in some pretty fluffy, thick greenside rough. He did what every pro seems to do....grounded his club behind the ball a couple time to 'test' the lie, etc....but, while he was doing this, the ball was wiggling - did it return to the exact same place? He then took a walk around, looking at the green, etc....when he went back to his ball, he pushed his club down again.....and again, the ball wiggled the whole time....did it return to the exact same spot? - don't know. And, I would think, that all this pushing did get some of the grass out of the way.

I've seen pros do this all the time but it always seems to me that they are far enough away from the ball to keep it from moving......something just didn't seem right about this one. Maybe this happens all the time and the camera technology is just showing more and more stuff that we don't usually see.

If you have watched much golf on the Golf Channel, surely you can tell that
the announcers seem to have much better things to do than pay any attention
to the golf being played.

I agree 100% with rrkman. I even posted on another thread about this as soon as i saw it on TV i knew it was gonna be up for debate as to weather or not it was a stroke penalty...he def moved some grass which I believe improved his lie as for the ball moving...it seems highly unlikely after moving it 3-4 times it would have gone back but I think you do judge yourself on that one.
In any event this is precisely why we have forums! Thank god for that...imagine asking someone on the bus if they saw Perez move the ball on 15 lol

USGA Decision 18/2 Ball Oscillates During Address:

Q. In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball “moved”?

A. No.

/thread

I didn't see it, as I said. Nobody cares what you THINK the rule should be, it's posted in black and white. Make the determination from there.

Kevin


I HAVE TO AGREE WITH HDDUDE55,I thought that was a bit harsh

1st EASY ON THE CAPS LOCK, 2nd there are enough decisions on the rules of golf to pretty much take interpretation out of the equation. Thinking about what the rule should be does not really matter in this situation.

Though i've seen this many times, i think it's odd that players will ground thier club behind the bal several times and then back off and take a practice swing. i guess you could say that you are checking to see how much grass is going to get between that clubface and the ball and, consequently, how the shot will come off, but i feel that 90% of the time they are improving thier lie no matter what the intent.

As far as the particular question, as far as i saw, the ball did "oscillate" and returned to its original position, which is allowed in the rules of golf. The improving the lie thing, however, has been addressed many times on the PGA tour and continues to be a problem as far as i'm concerned. (Not just pat Perez but MANY golfers)

Fishlips,

First of all, I haven't even offered an opinion on whether or not the ball moved. I simply posted the rule which is black and white. This guy felt the need to post the following in regards to the rule I posted:



I am here to help, not hurt Amateurs in their understanding. The fact that this guy thinks the rule should be different than it is written is irrelevant. I'm not trying to explain the rules as interpreted by others... Harsh, based on his post absolutely not.

All I did was quote directly from the USGA rule book and some just want to argue facts to fiction.

Kevin

It appeared the ball moved to me. Not sure if it imprved his lie or not. What would that mean for Pat Perez? Did he sign his scorecard wrong and should haved been DQ?

Are you kidding me? I am shocked this has really even become a question and a topic. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and all, but I have seen this a million times during every golf tournament. No he did not improve his lie by placing his club down behind the ball to see how it would sit. And no, the ball did not ever come to rest outside of its original position. The comment about the commentators not saying anything because they are in bed with the players is funny, yet absurd!

If there had been a rules violation, he would have called a penalty on himself.

Isn't that the way things are done? He didn't call a penalty, so there is none.

That's golf.

I'm very glad I came across this thread. I wondered the same exact thing when I saw it happen...

At least now I know, going forward, I'm allowed to address it in the fluffy stuff, as long as the ball comes back to its original position.

Good stuff. Thanks!

Dangerous ground to live on... if it doesn't come back to the same spot, you risk a penalty.

I just watched it on the DVR, multiple times in slow-mo and regular speed... my opinion is that the ball did not move at all when he addressed it the first time. He then took a couple practice swings, before addressing the ball again. This time the ball did barely move downward, but it then returned upward to it's original position before he hit it.

As someone said before, the camera was so zoomed in that it kinda magnified it. Doubt he even noticed from his angle. The ref in me says no penalty.

I'm glad I saw this thread. I was watching tv at the time and could not believe what a risky move that was for Perez to push down with his club on the grass, directly behind the ball. I noticed that the ball did not rotate, but it definitely moved up and down a couple of times on the thick bed of grass. Personally, if my ball is in thick grass, I do not ground the club for that very reason - the ball can easily move. I still am not sure if this should have warranted a penalty or not, but it does seem kind of stupid for a pro to be taking a chance like that. The ball could easily have dislodged and rolled a couple inches. If you are not in a hazard and want to test the lie, do it maybe a foot behind the ball, not an inch or two. It would be good for golf channel to do a small segment of a show on this, show the tape in slow motion, and talk about it. Boy, it was close.

Agreed. I seem to remember reading/seeing something about players keeping their clubs elevated to prevent the ball from moving.

Can somebody put a copy of the video on youtube so we all can see, thanks!

Ok, I have read all 40 post on this and I saw it too, the rules are there for a purpose and they worked, we were looking at a ball that looked like it was 1.68 feet in dia and not 1.68", it did move but as I saw it did not change position. As a golfer and competitor I will not question another players integrity, the player didn't feel like it move and thus it didn't. Was his move risky? I think so but I also think he would have called the infraction if he thought it moved.

You've seen players yo-yo balls a million times every golf tournament? I have been watching golf since Arnie made it a TV event and have never seen a guy repeatedly placed his club directly behind a ball in deep grass and repeatedly move it as Pat did. And I suspect that's why I have seen many posts on various golf boards asking questions about it. As for the incident, it seems like nonsense to believe the ball returned to its exact location after yo-yoing it several times and equally silly to not believe his lie was improved by repeatedly pushing down on the grass. As for the posts that claim it's a black and white situation and the rules are so extensive that interpretation isn't needed, even touring pro golfers frequently need rulings. When it comes to rules, regulations and the laws of the land, gray is everywhere. I think Pat definitely improved his lie and certainly moved the ball, if only a fraction of an inch upwards or downwards. I am amazed by the people posting here who think it's OK. Do you do this when you play?

Yes, I have seen pros ground there club many many times like this in golf tournaments. Again, this time was much more pronounced because the ball was magnified so much. I guess the officials all watching this who do this all the time didn't really have a problem with it did they? Or maybe they were all just cheating so Pat could win his first tournament. And yes, I have certainly grounded my club in deep grass behind a ball like that. I couldn't tell you how much it may have moved up or down or whatever because as someone else said, you would never see that little of a movement from looking down on the ball. If a ball moves enough to be a penalty, you can tell. Just because he was grounding his club and the grass mashed down doesn't improve his lie.....according to the rules....maybe in your opinion. Technically when you are hitting a shot out of the rough for that matter and ground your club behind the ball and picked it up to waggle I am sure there were some blades of grass you bent down that didn't come back.

at first i thought nothing of this thread, but now i badly want to see a vid, again another reason i wish i had tgc

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place. Not if it merely oscillates and retains its original position.
Everyone is somewhat right. There was movement, but not under penalty of the rules. But those who mentioned it was dangerous living are dead on. I wouldn't have the gutts to play around that much with the grass, and especially grass that long. But like many other said, there would have been a firestorm of comment from the announcers had there been a violation. Especially Nick

its too bad no one has the clip on youtube or anywhere...

Would you care to share the conclusions they have come to on the "various golf boards?"

Kevin

Yeah, are they all saying there should've been a penalty?

There are apparently two rules in question here:

1. Did the ball move out of its position
2. Did he improve his lie

Like Kevin, I haven't seen the clip (I'd like to). But it sounds clear just from the posts in this thread that the ball clearly wobbled, but looked to have settled in its orginal position. Clearly the announcers didn't see a need to comment so I doubt they thought it was an issue. If the camera was zoomed in on the ball and this is the only way its wobble was likely visible, and if even from that footage it's not clear that the ball moved out of position, then it's rather senseless (IMO) to be up in arms over it.

Did he improve his lie? He's allowed to lightly ground his club behind the ball when addressing it and this is not considered improving his lie (see rule 13-2). It sounds like it could be debated whether he was grounding his club "lightly" or if he was even technically "addressing the ball." However, it also sounds clear that Perez was testing his lie with the intent of testing his lie...not with the intent of improving his lie. Testing his lie in the rough is permissable. So, absent intent to improve his lie, was his lie "unduly improved? Decision 13-2/1.1 states, in part:

A. When fairly taking his stance the player is required to take his stance in the least intrusive manner that results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play.

It sounds like he was within the rules. Is it certain that his lie was actually improved? Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like the ball wobbled and might've moved a hair but it doesn't look like it moved at all. It sounds like he moved some blades of grass around while testing his lie, and that some of those blades of grass may (or may not) have stayed moved.

So the ball might have moved...but probably not. And he may have improved his lie minimally...but probably not. And in either case, if he had made an error, he wouldn't even have been aware of it (and neither would anyone else on scene).

If he had even THOUGHT there might be a problem he'd have likely called an official over. If the people in the booth thought there might've been an issue they'd probably have mentioned it.

So he probably didn't think there was any problem, the announcers didn't mention any problem, and even from extremely close-up footage it's not clear that there was any problem. So...what's the problem? LOL

Sounds clear that at the very least he was well within the spirit of the rules which is to ensure a fair competition.

Kevin

I learn something new here everyday... great place!

I was confused when I saw it on TV as well, but thought that I was just not understanding some rule out there... (which turned out to be the one where it returns to it's original position)... I figured, being that the announcers didn't mention it, he did nothing wrong.

Besides, just my $.02, I'm pretty sure Double P knew what he was doing... and again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think any touring pro would risk cheating. Not only to uphold the entire premise of the game's integrity, but also because they've got to know that all these high-tech cameras are on them capturing their every shot.

Congrats, Pat Perez, on your first win! Man, it's fun to watch him play!

LOL.. i was watching this too.. and it seems very sketchy live when i saw it.. i think the rules officials were too busy trying not to get blown over by the 30mph winds.. i think if so many people are questioning it.. then there some sort of validity to a rules violation..

As far as Pat Perez.. i'm curious to see how good he really is when he's not playing on a compilation of resort courses in Palm Springs.. and the best player in the field isnt Steve Stricker.