Just like the huge mole on a beautiful womans face, there are great golf courses with 17 GREAT golf holes. However, if somebody asks you for the most memorable hole, the only one you remember is the one eyesore. Name the one that stands out most to you. . .

Mine:

Cateechee (Hartwell, GA) Hole #10

Longish par 4 that requires a shaped tee shot through a narrow window if one wants a mid iron for their approach shot. That approach shot, I should mention, plays 20-40 feet downhill over or adjacent to(depending on ball flight) a sewage treatment pond!

Other than that, it's a wonderful, well manicured course! I never hesitate to play there!

In their defense, they have an agreement with the local gov't to use the treated water for irrigation. No wonder they have the greenest grass around!

Cypress Point.

18th.

Oh dear.

+1

I love Caledonia in Myrtle Beach. 17 great holes and then you have #9. A joke of a par 3(118 yds) that looks like it was just plugged in to make 18 holes. So out of place and disappointing.

Cross Creek golf course in Temecula California is a beautiful, well-designed golf course until you get to the 18th tee.

Hole 9 Torrey Pines South, There are all of these research buildings to the left, and this horrible exhaust system that make a huge racket,

plus it's a boring straightaway par 5...

Hole 9 Torrey Pines South, There are all of these research buildings to the left, and this horrible exhaust system that make a huge racket,

plus it's a boring straightaway par 5...

The World Atlas of Golf (1976) describes Cypress Point as "the world's best 17 hole golf course".

Question: Where is Worksop, UK and how did a guy from across the pond land a round of golf at Cypress Point, a course that is apparently even more impervious to visitors than Augusta National?

I'm thinking there may be a good story to be told there of interest to golfWrx?

# 8 Pete Dye Golf Club in Clarksburg, WV. It is where they hold the Nationwide Tour Players Cup is played. The entire golf course is awesome and then they for some reason made the green on #8 (used to be #17) and made an absolute mess of it.

Wolf Creek #15. Par 3

Its such a beautiful and adventurous course, then you pull up to #15 and your like, "what the hell happened, did they run out of room."

I haven't played either of these personally, but from watching tournaments on TV:

The 17th hole at Valderrama in Spain. Even though it's been redesigned at least once, a well played shot hit deliberately without much spin can roll back from the middle of the green into the water in front if there's a little wind against (ex. Tiger Woods shot a few years ago.

18th hole at Olympic Club. Approx. 350 yard par 4, and unless they've changed the green contours, just a couple of available pin positions for tournament play.

I wish there was.

The reality is, I'm an armchair golf course architect (like a lot of WRXers, I suspect) and have read some of the same books as you by the sounds of it.

I know a lot of the story behind that 18th is a simple case of the topography restricting things, but Alister MacKenzie must have been glowing with pride after the 16th and 17th were finished; only to think 'bloody hell... I forgot about the 18th. I'll just have to cobble any old rubbish together in this slopy bit here..'

Awful.


Incidentally Worksop is a fine heathland track in north-west Nottinghamshire where I played my golf for a few years. It has its own carbuncle of a hole in the form of the fifth. It used to be a great little driveable 280 yarder with an elevated green. A classic risk/reward hole with a small well-guarded putting surface and trouble in play for the brave in the form of bushes and trees that you had to carry if you went for it over the corner of a left-hand dogleg.

Now, after a questionable bit of 'redesign', it's unreachable off the new back tee and thus plays as a humdrum long iron followed by a pitch up to a re-built, three-tiered monstrosity of a green that's totally out of character with the rest of the course and consequently, in the language of my part of the country, 'looks a bugger...'

Some holes are born crap. Some achieve crapness. And some, by virtue of a load of blazered muppets in a greens committee, have crapness thrust upon them.


p.s. I have managed to have a knock at Seminole in my time. It's not Augusta National or Cypress Point, but it's a reasonable claim to fame for a modest player like me from England.

the 17th at birkdale was, um, suspect at the open this year. that green seem really out of place in comparison to the others. and the players loved the course, but hated that green.

didn't bethpage have 2 greens that had to run much slower because they had a lot of slope and the others didn't? that's a real shame.

and i second the knock on the 17th at valderamma. that green is a joke. tiger putted into the water at the ryder cup!

this brings up an interesting point between my friends and i. we believe that every golf course should have at least one short par 3. i'm thinking, between 100 and 130 yards. even from the back tees. it's such a fun shot to hit. but lately, it seems more and more you're lucky if you even find one par 3 under 160 yards. just my opinion.

love caledonia, though. favorite course in myrtle.

Pebble Beach has a few-

1st hole routine dogleg par 4, a yawner of a start
2nd hole straight-away par 5, nothing exciting
3rd hole dogleg left, fairway wood off the tee to a high iron in, boring hole
11th hole blind, uphill tee shot, to a green that is too small
12th hole par 3 with a bunker in front of the green (can be found at any muni)
13th hole par 4 that is dead straight
15th hole straight away par 4 with 17 Mile Drive with its many tour buses making noise

Augusta...

17 and 14 are awful holes.

They weren't until the length obsession went into overload.

14's now a very difficult tee shot for anyone who doesn't draw the ball, and 17 - which used to be a great hole, often pivotal in deciding the outcome of the tournament, is now awful. Shorter hitters struggle to clear the hill from the tee and the majority of the field are now going in with a club that's too long for the approach to that green.

The worst case of Crimes Against Augusta is reserved for the seventh. What used to be a great little par 4 is now the narrowest tee shot on the course, followed by an approach shot with a mid (or even long if the wind's against) iron to a green that's designed to receive a wedge shot. Zach Johnson played for the front bunkers each day when he won as he couldn't hold the green, even off a solid drive.

Top stuff.

Indian Summer Golf Club
Lacey, WA


A gorgeous course, designed by Peter Thompson, rated one of the best courses in Washington State, was a Nike Tour stop in 1996 and 1997 and was voted by the tour players as the "Best of the Nike Tour"...

Unfortunately, and I forget which hole(s) it happens on, but the large transcontinental power lines cut right through the golf course, and on one hole in particular the lines sag @ their lowest point at about the exact height that a properly executed tee shot reaches about the same distance off the tee that the lines are.

Yeah...talk about a crappy finish to a great drive. There used to be a chalkboard in the pro shop with hash marks of how many people that day hit the lines.

Yeah that redesign was a bit of an error, Royal Birkdale and the R&A must have breathed a heavy sigh of relief when Padraig hit his second there on the 71st, that hole will forever be remembered for something positive now instead of tarnishing the event.

I played the Duke's course at St. Andrews in 2005 and thought it was brilliant with the sole exception of the 18th, it was like teeing off in a small meadow to the most boring fairway in the world, then the uphill approach felt like you were pitching into the back garden of the manor house, I think there was even a wall to contend with if i remember correctly. They were in the process of doing a lot of improvements when I played it so hopefully they attended to the 18th, I've certainly heard good things about the course the last couple of years. I qualified for a pairs competition there in April so will be interested to see the changes.

I'd have to disagree with you. I don't feel that the 18th was overlooked by MacKenzie. I do very much think that the 18th is grossly overlooked by the majority that play it, especially following the string of 15,16,and 17. the 18th today may suffer, but that is more from the trees creeping towards the fairway and the length of the hole. For American courses it seems that it is a must to make the 18th the grandest hole on the course, in both beauty and difficulty. on the other side of the pond you routinly find the 18th acts as a soft close to the triumphant finish of a round. With the history of british golf being played as one-on-one matches a designer would be foolish to design the 18th as the best hole on the course as there was little chance of the players utalizing the hole for their match. I feel the MacKenzie was following this idea when he designed the back nine close at Cypress. At the same time, the 346 yard uphill par 4 closer was still a good test of golf when the course opened in 1928 and could act as a final equilizer for any match that continued on to it. Today the short par 4 now feels awkward as the lenght has been greatly surpassed by time. It is unfortunate that the 18th at Cypress Point is forced to follow three of the greatest holes in golf, but as a stand alone hole I do not believe it is an overall failure and mistake by MacKenzie.

Interesting. There seems to some consensus between short par 3s and ho-hum 18ths.

I can see an average closing hole leaving one yearning for more on a otherwise spectacular course. I can think of a few I play like that.

However, I welcome the occasional short par 3. A couple come to mind (#17 @ TPC Sawgrass anybody?) It's the perfect underdog's hole. A local course here in Augusta has a 110yd cliffhanger (literally!). I'm not saying they should all be short (that particular course closes with a 215 yarder), but they do have there place in the game.

Personally, I think a short or even very short par 3 can be a fantastic hole and, if designed well and situated at the correct point on the course, they can be a real asset to the venue and provide a great challenge for the players.

I've played a couple of fantastic ones in my time at Woburn (the 3rd on the Dukes Course - which always played as #2 in the old British Masters) and the 8th at Royal Troon - the famous 'Postage Stamp.' Both are cracking holes and, despite being nothing more than a wedge or 9 iron in normal conditions, they represent a very real challenge with their appropriately small and well-protected greens. The 7th at Pebble Beach is another little gem that can become fiendishly difficult when the wind starts whipping in.

The art of designing cracking little short holes (as well as driveable par 4s) seems to be a dying one in this day and age of 220 yard plus par 3s and par 4s that are scraping 500 yards.

hollabachqt - your response to my criticism of Cypress Point's 18th made interesting reading and, having given it some thought, it makes a lot of sense when the history of the course is taken into account. I still say it's a bit of a carbuncle on the face of a great course - for the modern game - but I agree with a lot of your views and am better informed for having read them. Your thoughts on the historical aspects of course design were very insightful. Good post.

#9 at Caledonia isnt really thaaaat bad. Mike Strantz was the king of kwirk. And I also like the idea of short par 3s on a course. Give me a PWedge, 125 yards and certain death if you miss in the wrong spot. Its a bit of an unusual challege, but I think its neat. I must say I did think it was part of the practice area though as I drove out to the 1st tee.... :z



There's a little course in Lake Lure, NC, part of the Apple Valley resort. A very nice mountain course, except for this one par 5, I think #7. ~560 yardsElevated tee, with a sharp 90° dogleg to the right. Thing is youve got to lay up to literally a circular landing area, 140-190 yards out, then go up a rising, side hill lie into a difficult green. Obviously they had to do some alteration to it at one point, but it is easily one of the worst holes Ive ever seen on a very nice course...

Tee, stupid circle fairway landing area
Click to view attachment

Your next shot, way, way uphill to a severe sidehill lie
Click to view attachment

Any par 3 over 220 yards, Man I dont want to be hitting a wood of a par three.

or a par 5 that forces you to take an iron off the tee due to an uncuttable dog leg a la my home course.

I don't know if I would qualify it as a "great" golf course but number 14 at Bandon Trails came to mind immediatly to me.

I think it may have to be due to the fact that after spending 3 days in Bandon and playing each course multiple times it was the only pock mark on the trip. I remember on our third day after our second round one of the pros we played with saying "man, that is 53 great golf holes. Pretty remarkable to only have one bad one when you think about it."

If any of you have ever been to Reno, the 3rd at Washoe is a ridiculous hole... 110 yards to a green raised on a 10 foot mound to a green about 12 feet across... It gets really interesting when the wind blows

Mountain courses are full of bad holes. But I think you have to give them a pass due to the terrain and difficulty of building courses in the mountains.

The 18th hole on the Irish course at Whistling Straits.

I played the Straits in the morning and the Irish in the afternoon and was bummed that my last hole of the day was one of the worst holes I have played. It could be a good finishing par 5, but it's hard to determine where to hit your tee shot and if you hit a bad tee shot, there's virtually no place to hit a recovery second shot.

I disagree with the comment about every course having a short par 3, I think anything less than 150 yards is to short IMO, but I could be biast as my home course's par 3's are as such 178, 209, 152, 216. Longer than avg for par 3's on a coursde with a total yardage of 6629, but Par 5's are 492, 452, 509, 460 Water in play in all but one hole. It makes for interesting scoring with easier par 5's and harder par 3's. Kinda off topic sorry.

#2 at the Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg. Awkward, awkward short par 5 that does nothing for the course except create an instant logjam as everyone goes for it in 2.

Anyone played Sharks Tooth in Panama City? I think it is a great course and routing...which is not always the case with Norman designs. (Anyone remember Creeks of Beechwood out at Texas Motor Speedway..thats another topic all together)...The one exception is a horrific par 5 on the front 9, I think #6. There is decent room to drive the ball..problem comes on the second shot. You have to hit a 3 wood/Hybrid over the inlet to the lake into about a 12 yard wide landing area hemmed in on left by lake and right by trees and mounds on the right. Just no where to fit the ball. Don't get the hole at all. Other than that a beautiful course.

Bandon Trails #14 - Played it back in 2004. From what I've read they have tried to make some changes to it but without much success.

There is an interesting discussion over at GolfClubAtlas discussing the original intent of the 18 at Cypress and the location of the trees as they frame the hole.

Oak Grove in Harvard Illinois (1.5 miles from Nowhere) is an Audibon certified course that is stunningly beautiful. That is...until you come to the 11th hole which is a 490 yard, double dogleg par 5 that is one of the most ill conceived holes. The first shot is a layup of no more than 200 yards because if you hit it 215 or more, you're in the woods. The second shot is a layup of no more than 100-125 yards to a 10 yard fairway. The angle of the dogleg and grove of oak trees makes it impossible to go for the green in two or even get it within 100 yards of the hole. If you hit it more than 125, you're in a hazard.

While loving strategy holes, having to lay up twice isn't a whole lot of strategy.

bethpage black #14. plays abt 160 from the back of the box to the middle of the green. they've got to build a new tee box across the road (next to the 13th green), but since the ground slopes down into a gully, it would be fairly difficult. they extended the green on the back right which is a challenging location, otherwise they have to put the pin in the front since the green is too severely sloped and everything that hits will roll to the front. honestly, it's not a terrible hole (esp if you find yourself in the short or left bunkers- which would require a pretty bad swing) like a Cypress #18, but just not as good as the other 17.

Shark's Tooth was a great layout, as was Camp Creek which is a Fazio layout nearby
I can't remember that hole being that bad

Links at Crowbush Cove in PEI Canada has a ridiculous 17th, 110 yarder to a tiny TINY green on a high knoll
Whole course is overated anyways but that little hole was a complete fit in

I know this is thread is a matter of opinion, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. Different holes are going to appeal and look differently to each and every player.

A look at the course - http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188489

I disagree with #18 at the Irish being the "blemish" on that course. It fits in well with the other par5's on that particular track, not to mention the other holes, and requires that you hit quality shots in order to score. Being one of the shorter, if not the shortest, par5 on the course, it can give the player the opportunity to score at the end of the round. Although, not easily, but the option is definitely there. You can still miss, but getting up and down can become a serious task. I will agree that knowing where to hit the ball will help, but the newer yardage book gives the possibilities (so will the caddies).

I do believe that not all designs are perfect. There will always be a weak hole design on a course, especially when you play at a facility that might not have had the money for a established designer. That doesn't necessarily mean that new, un-established designer can't developed amazing track. Only that the possibility is there for someone who's playing a round to stand on the tee-box and seriously question the designer's thought process. In a way, it allows for a uniqueness. And, as long as it follows a general train of thought found throughout the course, no harm no foul (IMO). There are still holes though, that while following a particular design principle, still won't cut it.

One course that I will say that has a "blemish" is Erin Hills #7 (223/201/184/165/149/136 - par 3; hcp 17). It truly is a love/hate relationship with players. It's one or the other, but never in between. Personally, I used to think it was fairly unique. Even while being a replica hole. But now, after playing the track several times, it just doesn't fit in. It's just too cut and paste in comparison other holes in the design. A design which I feel improves with each successive hole you play. It's out of place with those surrounding it, and to bland to stand on it's own.

For those that are unfamiliar, it's a hole that plays into a "dell". You're given a distance, asked to hit it towards a white rock on top of the hill which signifies where the pin is located for the day, and that's it.

Awesome website. Well, if you're into course design..

+1 on Oak Grove. That joke of a hole really stands out in all the courses I've played. Great greens though.

Bubb...

Not sure if you played Oak Grove at the end of last summer. You're spot on how the greens used to be. I've played Medinah #3 about 20 times and Oak Grove's were my favorite. But...they changed management companies and were pretty torn up when we played it in August.

Hopefully this spring they'll be back to their old standards!

I completely agree with your assessment of that hole.

I do disagree with building another tee though. I like the idea of having a shortish par 3 given the difficulty of the rest of the course. Further, given how difficult that green is hitting a longer iron in would make it too hard of a tee shot.

That back right portion of portion of the green would be a very nasty pin position and I am almost certain that it will be there for one of the US Open days.

+1. I couldn't agree more. One quick, little moment of insanity. That said, I've still never bogeyed it!

Unfortunately we didn't have caddies for the 2nd round and the tee shot is very deceptive. IMO with so much "free space" to the right beyond the fairway bunker, there's no reason to basically have a 5-yard wide fairway bridge between the tee shot landing area and the approach shot landing area if you hit a bad tee shot.

After playing 35 good holes of golf it just seemed to me to be a very poor way to end the day. I felt that was the worst hole that I played all day.

Yep. Having the OPTION to safely hit it 225, 140, 120 safely while 280 carry then 180 carry is another option is good strategy, but being forced is not.

There is a hole like this at Fox Den Fairways near Kent State University in Ohio. One of the par 5's (I think it's the 11th,) you need to tee off with an 8 iron. The fairway has a 95° dogleg right that leaves you with 310 uphill!?! Very few high ball hitters can cut the corner with a 5 iron and maybe leave themselves 275 up hill, stupid hole!!! What kind of par 5 should you ever have to hit an 8 iron off the tee, that's just dumb!

BattleCreek Golf Course...

I love that course (before the renovations) after a long par 5, you had the shortest par 4 on the course, around 280 depending on the tees, but it was right off the experssway, and It just didnt not belong.. Awesome scoring hole, but just didnt like the cosemtic aspect of it...now they renovated the course and took out that short par 4 (hurts the score card) and also removed a downhill par 3, and replace it with an easy par 4, and a par 3 with almost an island green (turf on the back of the green)....The 2 new holes make the course "look better" but also a harder place to play....the other neg of the new holes is that there are now 2 holes that play right next to each other and its too close IMO, but none the less still a fun track to play on

My parents are members at Colleton River just off of Hilton Head, SC. The club has a Jack Nicklaus and a Pete Dye Course. Both courses VERY well thought of in the state and a lot of fun to play. The Pete Dye Course is a wonderful track that most of Bagger Vance was filmed on. However, the sixth hole is a par 3 that plays about 175 from the tips and looks as if it belongs on the moon (literally). It does not fit the rest of the course at all. It even have an orange-ish sand around the hole that is found nowhere else on the course. The members asked Pete Dye if they could change the hole and Pete said = "Sure! But if you do, you can take my name off of this golf course."

Needless to say, the hole remains.

fair enough. back right will definitely be in play during one of the wknd rounds, and short front both weekday rounds. i suppose a brief respite before the nightmare that is #15 is appropriate- that second shot is probably one of the hardest in golf (assuming you hit the skinny fairway).

No argument about 15. The first time I played it I hit a solid drive in the middle of the fairway that left me 210 in. I careered a 3-iron just left of the green that everyone in my group told me would funnel to the green and that I might even have a tap in birdie. Well, a clump of grass 6 inches from the green stopped the ball from feeding onto the green, but I was able to get up and down for par. It was by far one of the toughest pars I have ever made.