For me Europe is easily Royal Liverpool GC (My home club i go elsewhere and smash my handicap. When it's windy i can't drive the fairways and i carry 260+yrds. It held the Open in 2006 when Tiger won.)

U.S Probably Augusta National Because of the greens (i have never been to the states so take my choice with a pinch of salt)

Carnoustie when it's windy.

Kiawah Island Ocean's course is probably the hardest on the East Coast of the US. Possible one of the hardest in the world. Rating and Slope is 144/77.2. I bet it's probably top 5 toughest in the US. I'm sure there are tougher tests in Scotland or Ireland.

Bethpage Black. An absolute monster if there is even a hint of a breeze... come US Open time... fuhgettaboutit!

Another vote for Carnastie

Probably the two toughest courses that I have played in the U.S. are:

Blackwolf Run River, Koehler, Wisconsin 76.3 rating/153 slope from the back tees

Wolfcreek, Mesquite, Nevada 75.4 rating/154 slope from the back tees

That's no longer golf...

-ICBMs have closer targets.

A lot depends on the weather, Carnoustie looks pretty tough when the wind and rain come, as well as a lot of other courses such as Shinnecock Hills, Bethpage Black etc. Day in day out I would have to go with Oakmont, from my understanding they make the course easier for the US Open. While the links courses are a big challange, they just dont have the green speed that an Oakmont does, of course they can't because they just can't cut the fescue that fast, and if they did they would run the risk of the greens being unplayable when the wind picked up. I have also talked to people who have played Kiawah and they say it is a b***h, and I have talked to people who have played Carnousite on a calm day and have been told it is difficult, but not unplayable.

Unfortunatly I have never played any of these, (maybe not unfortunaley) I would love to hear from someone who has.

For me I think every hole would be a par 5 at that length,

Over the weekend, I happened to catch the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match from '96 featuring Greg Norman and Fred Couples at Skibo Castle in Scotland. It looked pretty tough, mainly because of the wind.

Oakmont was at like a 15 on the Stimp.......they slowed them down to a 13-14 for the US Open. The rough is basically unplayable.....during the US Open the rough was trampled but during normal member conditions it's literally a foot deep.

I'm playing it this spring.....I just hope to break a 100.

Pine Valley has a slope rating of 155, which I believe is the highest possible. It's not that long though. Only course I've ever played where on every single hole I can see how you can run up a big number, without doing a whole lot wrong. There's also a place in France called Les Bordes, which apparently has two boards in the clubhouse. One for people who break 80 and one for people who play 18 holes with one ball. Neither has many names on it. I've also played Royal St Georges in a high wind and that was TOUGH. Not played Carnoustie, but I hear that's harder still.

I really dont like the way they make courses to the US open. They should leave things like the greens how they are, i was gutted when they slowed the oakmont greens down. Me personallly the hardest course i have ever played is Royal St Georges.

It has to be The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island - if the wind is up.

Otherwise, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV), and Winged Foot would be in the running.

Carnoustie.

The toughest course that I have played is The Bull at Pinehurst Farms in Sheboygan Falls, WI. There is just no place to make a mistake on that course.

Canada here I would have to say The National Golf Club of Canada is rediculous. Fast greens , blind shots but absoultly deadly for your game. great conditions. my other one would be Eagles Nest , also in Ontario, its Long, links style but will lots of mounds and once the wind gets going , sinces like its name eagles nest it sits on top o this hugh hill. if you are in the area, its a great course really tough and for you US guys it sa good price runs you about $175 with a cart and you need the cart.

If you exclude the effcts of weather, Pine Valley is the toughest I have ever played.
As mentioned above the only course I have played where big big numbers can happen on every hole.
Very playable though, that is the irony of the place.
Keep it straight and below the hole, playable, but get out of position or hit it long..see ya..big numbers.
Now with a blustery wind, a number of links courses can become almost unplayable...but that been said, Pine Vallay with 30 mph winds..impossible!

Wow Lots of votes for Carnoustie and Oakmont i have played Carnoustie in a force 5 (bft) and got round in 81 and i have never played off that at the Royal Liverpool and that's my home club best i have accomplished there is 82. I will be honest though my round at carnoustie was one of my better ones and it is the 2nd hardest i have played but it aint as hard as The Royal Liverpool.

Anyone played On Islay? The Machrie! Hard as nails, and its NEVER not windy! never blows in the same direction either, its a bear. Not overly long, but tight, with lots of dunes, blind greens everywhere......

Played Carnoustie, The Black and Kiawah.

For me it's Kiawah. But that's me.

Surprised to see Carnoustie get so many mentions -- I've always felt that the setup there (for the Open vs. for everyday play) made one of the biggest differences of any course I've played... While by no means easy, the standard tips are just not impossible with the rough down, even in (moderately) windy conditions. Certainly 16-17-18 are beasts, but the rest of the course is, to me, easier than, say, Turnberry or Troon.

Toughest course I've played is the Straits course at Whistling Straits. There are 10-12 shots with absolutely no room for error there, and the greens are really tricky (Then again, I played with a Pine Valley member who shot 70 and said Pine Valley was tougher).

Old Head was nearly impossible the day I played there. Not sure it's ever calm in the middle of the North Atlantic.

For me it is PGA West Stadium course. I have never ventured back to to far tees because half of the par 4s I could not reach in 2. It doesn't seem that tough when you are playing it, but then you add up your score at the end and it seems much higher than it should be.

I must admit, the Open at Hoylake was a little disappointing, just because the weather made the course lay down it's serious defenses. I have played there once, when I was at university, we had a match against the club (about 12 or so years ago now I guess). Great course, with some tough, tough holes. I wanted to see them play the first (the third when the pros played it) into the teeth of a wind. They were all hitting irons to the corner. When I played it I had to smash driver not to have a second shot over the corner of the OB. Like I said, I've not played Carnoustie, so I can't compare the two, but I don't remember Royal Liverpool being harder than RSG. Memory is hazy though. It was a long time ago and I've killed a few brain cells since.

Kiawah, Oakmont or Winged Foot in the US (WF has hosted 5 US Opens with the average winning score being +4.5!!!)

don't know about the whole world, but i hear "Carnasty" is not easy...

I agree because I played it when it was very breezy.

But my pro has played Pine Valley before. He said its the hardest course he's ever played because of the way the landing areas are set up. You're either in the fairway or you're dead, not much in between.

kiawah is in fact the hardest course in the united states. it has the highest combination of slope and course rating.

ive played kiawah in a solid wind, but my vote goes to carnoustie. dont know how it compares to in term of slope and rating, but if there is wind (there always is) i firmly believe there is no harder course in the world.

i play Bethpage Black a few times a month, and would love to say it's the hardest. but, though extremely challenging, I'd be surprised if it were one of the all-time hardest in the world. It's length and rough are what make it killer, but in my opinion, that gets balanced out by a lack of hazards, relatively easy greens, generous fairways, and fairly-placed bunkers. It's not that difficult a lay-out, all things considered, but it does do a wonderful job of making you pay for your mistakes. and that's where I think the reputation is earned. i do agree that throw in some wind and rain and it's an absolute beast, but i also think that's true of a great number of courses.

that said, and maybe somewhat contradictory to what i just wrote above, i do like how a lot of the answers so far refer to courses that challenge every aspect of your game. just adding length, or just growing the rough, or just adding water, or just making it flat-out target golf, shouldn't be enough to garner consideration.

anyway, my vote is for Pine Valley.

+1 on Pine Valley. There is a bunker there that you climb down a latter to get into and you litterally cant see out of the top. It is probably 4 feet by 4 feet and there is basically no room to get out. I climbed into the bunker and did not have any room to swing a club

I haven't played Royal St George's but i know what you mean about the open as although tiger only took 1 shot with the driver and completely missed the Fairway and mostly used 2 irons stingers for control i feel had the windy been blowy nobody would have broken 70 and the cut would have been more than 10 over as like this years open at Birkdale (also quite close so i have played it a few times) as soon as the wind got up many players couldn't handle it and some even walked of (Sandy Lyle) and Birkdale has nothing on Royal Liverpool.

The National is tuff but Eagles Nest isn't....Once you get around it a few times....I played Oakmont in October with the greens at 16+ and the wind howling and nothing i played could have played harder...nothing overseas or in Canada....i would still be there if not for my caddy...86 from the back tees....the caddy said i had a was lucky to shoot that!!

I lived in London for many years and had easy links access.
1. Royal County Down
2. Bethpage Black
3. Carnoustie
4. The Ocean Course
5. Burnham and Berrow ( a small course in South West England that looks across at Wales-used for Open qualifiers)

I've played Kiawah and it's ridiculous because of the wind. If the wind is dying down, then I don't think it's that hard of a course. A friend of mine who was a helluva college player and played some mini-tours played Carnoustie and said that he shot a 76 there and felt he played the round of his life. It usually doesn't get too windy at Augusta and they close down the tournament tees during the year and only have them open for the Masters. I actually love the changes to Augusta. It's long, but I think it's fair. I don't think it's as hard as Kiawah.




3JACK

Here's a vote for Rich Harvest Farms in Sugar Grove, IL. VERY DIFFICULT!

My thought would be Bethpage Black, but I've never played it. The most difficult and most rewarding course I've ever played is Stonebrae GC, San Francisco.

The European Club in Ireland. The most insane golf course ever. I played it with a guy thats now on tour and in the top 4 in driving distance and there were a couple of par 4's he couldnt' get to in two with two drivers. Theres a picture in the clubhouse of Tiger, Duval, O'Meara and Scott McCarron, and Pat Ruddy told us Tiger said European club had the '8 toughest par 5's he'd ever played'. I've played alot of the other courses named including Ocean @ Kiawah, both Blackwolf Runs, Whistling Straits, Royal County Down, and none of them compare. If you ever watch the Golf Channel this is the course where Harrington does his playing lesson.

http://golf.ireland-guide.com/european_clu...ourse.5023.html

I have never seen snow but surely there is a golf course out there where you play in the snow and on ice. That has to be tough. What would the stimp be on an ice-green?

Lucky to play Pine Valley 3 times and I thinks it a fair test and not crazy hard, especially if you are a good lag putter. The fairways are actually very wide and greens are large. Visually the approach shots are very intimidating with high shot values. Every hole at PV is just awesome.

Galloway National on the bay near Atlantic City, NJ is ridiculously hard from the tips in the wind and that is with the rough cut short. I can't imagine how hard it would be with real rough.

I played the The Ocean Course on Kiawah island once in a round where we experienced just about every type of weather event possible. I did not play the tips but have to say that from those back tees I could not imagine anything being much tougher when that wind is blowing like it can.

Sewickley Heights not far from Oakmont has some of the toughest greens in America when they get them rolling, and they get them rolling fast-often.

Never had the good fortune to play in Europe on some of the old classics there.

oldpalchamp beat me to it!!! Rich Harvest Links is the hardest I have played.....

http://www.theinternational.com/club/scrip...P=32&CID=27

THE INTERNATIONAL (THE PINES) / Bolton / Mass. / 8,325 Yards / Par 73 / theinternational.com
It has pounded its chest as the longest golf course in the land since 1957, only once adding new back tees when someone dared to challenge its supremacy. The numbers are laughable: 8,325 yards, par 73, with a Course Rating of 80. The closing hole is 656 yards--and it's not even the longest par 5 on the course. There's also a par 6, the 715-yard fifth hole, and the par-3 seventh is 277 yards. Length isn't its only overindulgence: The fifth green is 91 yards long and takes more than an hour to mow, and the 11th, a modest 590-yard par 5, has 24 bunkers. If you plan to play it from the tips, be sure you have a three-day weekend

i played carnoustie last year in a 20 mph wind and a steady sideways rain. i shot 86, and at the time carried a 1.4 hdcp (off the UK system). i still consider that to be the single best round of golf i ever played. the weather wasnt great, but at the time i was living in scotland and used to it. the course is absolutely a monster, even without wind.

also, to the guy who said there was an enormous discrepancy between carnoustie set up for the open and normal carnoustie, thats only half true. the courses over there play much easier in the winter, fall and spring. they tend to cut everything back during the fall, and then let everything grow back in naturally. they dont do too much more to carnoustie for the open. by that point, the rough is already grown out, the fairways and greens rock hard, and the tall fescues are healthy and thick. play carnoustie in the early summer, and you will be blown away (literally and figuratively) by its difficulty.

Ratliff Ranch
Odessa Texas
usually about 25-30 mph winds and its fast as heck

thats insane. next time i go to visit my family in massachusetts im going to make that trip. that course will kick my a** but i think it would be a fun experience at the least.

for now though, i'll have to put in another vote for bethpage black. its a monster when its windy and/or rainy, and when its in US Open conditions, forget it.

Galloway is an incredible course. Not sure i'd mention it in this list, but glad to see it mentioned nonetheless. I grew up in South Jersey so have had the chance to play it a few times. A wonderful experience, for sure.

My two are Bethpage this past July on a beautiful day, and Carnasty in a 30mph wind in 2005. I could only reach 3 greens in reg on the back nine. I played the par 3's as 4's, the 4's as 5's etc. I remember our V.P of sales crushing his driver on 16, a 245 yard par 3 dead into the wind. He put it 6 feet and 3 jacked. Nobody went near him on the ride back to St. Andrews.

Yikes. Dude. Went over to Scotland for a trip with my pops and some of his buddies and their sons. We played St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry and Prestwick, along with some other non-Open courses. Carnoustie was my favorite, and the hardest of those that we played. I have a similar story actually...on 17 my dad played the wrong ball and realized it after we were on the green, had to go back and find the other one, penalty strokes, etc. He was awful cranky about that because he had a good round going. Of course, we were still pretty friendly in the van because we thought that his first hole-in-one ever earlier in the day at Kings Barns should be enough to keep him cheerful.


Over here in the states, there are plenty tougher than this, some of the ones mentioned, I'm sure, but one of the courses where my dad lives is a Dye course (the one used for all but one hole in "Bagger Vance"). They played a US Open qualifier there in 2006, had good weather, and the low score was 1 under, and he was the only guy to break par. Not bad for a course that measures under 7300 yards for tournaments and doesn't grow the rough out (never more than 3 inches in most places). Lots of places you don't want to miss a shot though.

I'd love to play The International in Mass....I'd have to play it all the way back....although I think I can just barely drive to the fairway on that really long par 6...715 yards I think.

+1 for Blackwolf River Course....a monster from tips

If it's windy, Whistling Straits in Kohler is brutal as well.

The Open Course at Moonah Links, Victoria, Australia.

"It measures 6783 metres (7420y), so it offers more than a casual stroll in the outdoors. It is a mighty and ferocious test of golfing ability, the likes of which even the top pros only occasionally experience. In terms of difficulty, I estimate a club-handicapped player would merit an extra eight strokes assistance to return a net par score, yet the course has great flexibility. It can be played at many different lengths depending on tees selected.
In addition to its condusive natural contours, the site is blessed with ever-present wind of some direction and strength, and this enhances its attributes. Planning has arranged that no particular direction is especially helpful, it is always a factor." Peter Thompson




Moonah Links

here's a cool website that has hole-by-hole photos and reviews of some nice courses, Pine Valley included.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/pinevalley1.html

The usual suspects.

When the wind's up, Kiawah Island and Carnoustie are both of nightmarish difficulty (particularly if that greenkeeping clown Philp has been anywhere near the latter, as in '99) and, as others have said, the Oakmont set-up when Cabrera won was getting a bit silly.

There's a line between 'bloody difficult' and 'unfair' though, and most of the really horrendous set-ups I can think of fall into the latter category where there's been a balls-up by the committee or the greenkeeper. Or the USGA have been involved (Torrey Pines excepted.)

I played Wentworth's West Course off the very back tees last year, late in the year, and the combination of soggy conditions and a bit of breeze blowing made it laughably long - and thus rather difficult. I'm a decent 1 handicap, a bit longer than average for my level of play, and a good long iron player to boot - but four unreachable par 5s and five par 4s where I was hitting a 2 or 3 iron approach off a solid drive make for a long (no pun intended) day, even when you're striping it and when there's no really silly rough to speak of.