I often play with people who cheat--fudge a score, kick a ball, drop a ball, etc--and normally it does not bother me, but normallly they are not cheating when we are playing for money. Today, I was playing a match with a co-worker for nominal dollars and he continually cheated. He would lie about his score, kick his ball, drop a ball, etc.

On one par three, he said he found his ball when I was looking in the woods for where his ball appeared to enter. As we were walking off the green, I spotted a ball pin high about 20 yards off the green. I knew it was his, so I said "sweet, a new nike ball" and pocketed it.

I also saw him kick his ball a substantial distance on one hole, and had him lie about his score on atleast 4 other holes.

I didn't say anything to him about it and acted as if everything was cool. I ended up winning the match anyway, but walked away with a real sour taste in my mouth. I figured since he is not a good friend or anything, I will just not play with him anymore, as opposed to calling him out about it.

Would it have been better to call him out?

Vent over.

Used to play with a guy we nick named "footwedge" or "fluffy". This guy would always kick the ball to a better lie or check to see if it was his ball then set it up with a better lie. Got real old real fast and just quit playing with him. There are way too many honest, good players out there and I'd just rather not go out and steam over some dishonest wanker.

You should have definitely picked him up on. I don't mind when you are playing a casual game with friends and you drop the occasional ball if you lose one, mainly because it helps the round going and you don't hold up the groups behind you. However if you are playing with people that you don't really know or in a competition to play like the guy you played with is a poor reflection on him and generally I find the only way you can stop cr*p like that is to pick the guy up on it.

How can someone lie about their score? I mean, you can easily go back and say "your first shot ended here, 2nd here, 3rd here.. etc".

This will show him that you're paying attention to his play, especially when you say "the 5th shot you kicked with your foot, which in match play is a loss of hole..."

You did the right thing with your situation (no future rounds = no confrontation needed). Personally, I cannot tolerate that stuff and the confrontations have cost me a casual friend or two. The last time this happened to me with a friend, I just started taking as many stokes off my score as they did. Got my first hole in one that day, on paper. It was great when I handed over the card at the end, guy was speechless.

If you were to have lost, no way should you have paid.

"How about I don't mention your dishonest play, and you don't mention any wager that you falsely won?"

I hate when people cheat! A good friend of mine always cheats in the ways you speak of. I still always win, but he always talks about his score and how low it is! He never counts his drops! Last time we were out he shot his lowest score and he is braging how he finally broke 100! He actually shot more in the area of 140! I don't even think he realizes he cheats! When I call him on it he gets mad at me! After our round I love to get him all pissed off when I get on him for cheating and still beat him! He makes me pissed off during our round so I love to piss him off after the round is over! Some tee boxes he will hit 3 or 4 balls before he is happy with his drive! I FEEL YOUR PAIN!!!!!

Screw that! After a persons "mulligan", I start walking. They can hit as many as they like, but I'll not stand there with them.

Bottom line is if you know someone is a cheater, or is not mature enough to take it when you call rules on them that they won't call on themselves, just don't play with them.


People who lie about big things are nuts, because there is so much on the line. People who lie about little things are nuts, because the little things don't ad up too much anyway.

I've seen guys cheat in tournaments.

I'd say 98% of "golfers" (non pros) cheat. 79.2% probably do it intentionally.

I hear what your saying! I don't play with him much anymore, maybe only 2-3 rounds a year.

I won't cheat if I am playing for something or in something. On a casual round I will play a 2nd ball or whatnot.

Golf is meant to be fun, and looking through the desert/woods all day isn't very fun :p

But when something is on the line, I can't stand when people cheat.. it's completely uncalled for. If you aren't good enough to play for a wager or such then don't make it in the first place.

Worked with a guy and played golf with him several times. He wasn't that good, but couldn't stand anyone beating him at what he thought was the same skill level or just a bit better. One day, he hit a Titleist "1" (always played a "1") into the woods on a par four. I mean INTO THE WOODS. We're looking for it and can't find the ball. The next thing we do is walk away to play our shots. After reaching the green, he take three more, holes out and yells he made par. Jesus (or your religious person of choosing) couldn't have made par with an obvious lost ball, but we congratulate him and I go and retrieve the ball from the cup. Ralph then said he found the ball and hit his 3-wood about 250 to the front of the green where he chipped, 2-putted and made par. I handled him his ball, saying he hit the ball so hard, he changed the number from a "1" to a "3". No comment from Ralph. We (excluding Ralph) laughed.

Wonder how that story played out with St. Peter at the Gates.

Ya agree with all here. I can understand the guy shooting 140 and trying to fluff his score a little....he's just trying to fit in. No real threat from him. He'll generally start shaping up once he gets better. He'll learn, hopefully.

But the guy shooting in 90's, 80's, sometimes 70's. He should know better and is pretty much a ****** bag in my book- and sadly it's a clear reflection of his personality.

He's probably the same guy chucking his club across the cart path into the cart, exploding my beer! "Oh sorry bro, just havin a bad...." For f sakes, it's the second, freakin hole dude! Like to see this guys attitude when we up it to a dollar a hole. Geeez

K sorry to get off topic there. I feel better now. But like someone else said there's plenty others out there who are genuinely fun and honest to be out there with. Most us golfers are.

I think thats the best way to deal with it humor. Most people can take bad news better if they can laugh at it.

That's pretty much my rule as well. A lot of the guys I play with just don't take the game as seriously as I do, and I won't fault them for it. I try to educate them on the penalties and what not, for the times that money is on the line, but I could care less if they shoot a 105 or a 125. It makes no difference to me, and a few foot wedges, and no-stroke drops makes the day more enoyable for them.

Call him out then give him the slip. Cheaters should be shamed.

If playing against a friend or co-worker for virtually nothing, who really cares about the outcome anyways? Think about the big picture. It's all about the fun.

Tourny conditions or playing against a head-case are different. No quarter.

I played in a Charity scramble and discovered a player on my team cheating! You may ask how does one cheat in a scramble, since you all play the ball from the same place and you can improve your lie anyway. Well here is what happened. The first two holes were par fours and my approach shot was closest. I thought I had hit it 15 feet past the pin on the 1st, but when it was time to putt we were only 10 feet away. I just assumed it looked further because of the angle or something. On the second hole, again my shot was closest and again I felt we were putting from a closer distance than I hit it. On the third hole, one of the other players had hit it closest. When we approached the green, one of our team went to mark the ball, (not the person who had hit the shot) and as he was bending over to mark the ball, he flicked the coin about 5 feet closer to the hole. At this point I finally realized what was going on and went over and picked up the ball marker and said "you dropped the ball mark, I think it was about here". I then replaced the ball and spent the rest of the round trying to tank the team to undo the ill gotten birdies on the first two holes. I refused to play in any team events with that individual from that point on.

I'm pretty flexible with people when they are doing small things like removing sticks from around the ball in the rough. I don't stand there and look at the ball, waiting for it to move one quarter inch so I can get an advantage over them with a penalty stroke. Or when they take a drop out of a hazard, I don't check to make sure it is only two club lengths and not nearer the hole when they are hitting a 5 iron. Who cares on these types of things which don't give an advantage. But when you are talking about big things like the # of strokes, or purposely moving your ball to a better lie, that is really off kilter. This would tell me something about that person's character when they are doing things other than golf.

Depending on the situation, your relationship to the person involved, how deep your pockets are, and how much is at stake, another option is to make a point.....

Reach in your pocket, take out whatever your share of the bet is, hand it to your opponent, and say something like, "You obviously will do anything to win this money, including cheat. Take it, it's yours."

Then walk off the course.

An expensive point, to be sure. It will most likely cost you a friend and playing partner. But with friends that cheat, who needs enemies?

This sums it up for me. First, a cheater should be given a chance to admit fault. If they protest, they deserved to be shamed.

The only thing worse than a cheater, is a person who renegs on a bet.

This is the best answer I read on this topic. I think AG has it right.

One thing these "cheaters" don't understand though is when it comes to money, we are going to go by the rules and you will never win. Every single person I play with cheats...every single person I have been paired with on a course CHEATS...some do it because they just don't know the rules, others because they are just out there to have fun and don't want to apply the rules 100% and others just plain cheat.

BTW, I love this:



The .2% is what really cracks me up, B&G really did his homework!

Here's the thing with me... I certainly don't mind someone quasi tracking their score. Meaning, they do take some liberties with regards to drops and lie. But DAMN, put a "X" or something to indicate this isn't a true score. That's what I do. I put the score I got, or whould have got with penalties and then put an "X" so I know not to count this card toward my handicap.

The cheaters I hate the most are the ones like this one guy I play with (which BTW, he's in law enforcement, so you would think rules would be his thing, but he's a cheating machine) who foot-wedges, drops near lost ball/OB locations, changes ball out to putt, etc... and then at the end of the round, he's all pissy about shooting a 112. MAN, HE WOULD HAVE HAD A 124 if he counted all his strokes, and even then he still would have received an "X" for those illegal drops on Lost/OB balls. My point being, I just hate when these guys asks what everyone got at the end of the round and are like yeah, I beat you. PAAAALEASE!

Here's two quandries;

1) As I begin to step up my game (3.9 handi) I have to really concentrate hard and I believe that part of golf is ettiqette, meaning respecting your opponents and displaying good sportsmanship. We all deal with the occational idiot. How do you maintain your head. I need help here.

2) In friendly games, say with your core group, what do you do if they call an obscure rule, such as you ball moving at address on the green in heavy wind?

I don't want to shut out my buds but, I am at that turning point in my game and I need you help with this mental part. THX

Make a mental note of the offense. Discuss it after the round like a gentlemen.

Remember, it's on them , not you. You can't control what other people are going to do.



Well, rules are rules, regardless of how obscure you think they are. If you're going to play by the official USGA rules, I suggest you buy a rule book and keep it in your bag. (If you haven't already) http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html

If it's not a club event or locally sanctioned event, don't sweat the details until after the round.



Why would you be shutting out your buds? It's just golf.

I hate cheaters as well. You have to know the rules to play this game.

Although I may have cheated myself once. I was playing in a tournament and was over a green and on a slope with my ball resting next to a stick. As I took my stance while looking at the hole I stepped on the stick and when I looked down the stick was no longer next to the ball. I think the ball may have moved but I do not know for sure. My playing competitors did not see either. So I just played it and never said anything. Should I have called a penalty on myself?

This may be akin to foot-wedging while looking away... But i'm not sure. I'm actually interested in the answer as well.

Part 2 of this question for me would be... I thought I read that a ball is only considered to be moved if it's in a different place. In other words, if the ball occelates (man, that cannot be the way you spell that) but ends up in the same spot, it's hasn't moved. Is that true? Like, if I ground my club in the grass and the ball rocks backwards but then I lift my club and it returns, is that a penalty? I try not to ground when I think the ball will move, but I was never sure of how this rule is applied.

First of all, I haven't looked it up, but I think if you don't know that the ball moved, it wouldn't be a penalty. Just because the stick was touching the ball DOES NOT mean that the ball was resting on the stick. More often than not, if the stick moves, the ball does, but its not for certain. I'm assuming you don't have to call the penalty unless you know it happened.

Second, if the ball oscillates back to the same position, it is deemed to have not moved. No penalty. Watched a guy cheat at the Masters claiming it had oscillated when it DEEEEEEEEEEFINITELY had moved...so thats the rule, but you still have to be the one to enforce it...unlike that guy.

Typically, any doubt is resolved against the player. So, you should have taken a one stroke penalty and returned the ball to its original spot.

You should have said something the first time you saw him kick the ball. "You know, that's not legal. Have you seen me kicking balls?" Maybe he didn't know that that's not cool.

The level of cheating I tolerate depends on how much the person I'm playing with sucks. If I know that they are not going to break 100, please by all means,.. kick it, lift it, throw it, anything to get him or her going a bit faster. If he or she can play then I call them on it.

The problem arrises, all to often, when the before mentioned wants to "play" and won't take a foot wedge and the latter finds him or herself 4 back and try moving the ball with everyting besides thier club.

My 00.2% worth
Cheaters should not be tolerated, but IMO people that don't call cheaters on the fact are nearly as bad. Your just enabling them to do it more. You need not be confrontational, but something should be said if it bothers you.

Its no wonder general accountability has all but disappeared from western culture.

Maybe the cheater won't change, but I think you should at least give him the opportunity to mend his ways.

Sorry dude...I don't think I could have just held my breathe when there was something on the line. I would have called him out on it especially if you found his ball. Easily would have push him on it and then brought up the fact that money was on the line and that requires fair play. If it's a casual weekend round...fine...you worry about your own score...I don't care if you think you shot better than you really did.

I play with a lot of folks who don't "play by the rules"...most of it is innocent (ignorant of the rules) and some of it is intentional (they want to just "play for fun"). The biggest infractions I see (again mostly innocent and I'd don't say much):

• Winter rules (improving lie)
• Improving position (moving it from behind a tree or other obstacle)
• OB or Lost Ball - dropping ball where ball went OB
• improper procedure when moving your marker on the green - TOO many people neglect to mark the ball first and then move the marker
• Mulligans or freebies on the first tee
• Practice strokes in a sand trap
• Grounding the club in a hazard
• Using "Line of Flight into a Hazard" mentality for a drop...

Do you mean they are taking sand with their practice stroke? I take a couple practice swings in a bunker first, but never touch the sand.....

There is definitely a big difference between the guy who has the ability to post a score who cheats and the guy who is learning the game and improves his lie regularly.

When I take my brother, who is just learning, out on the course, I always tell him to put it into the fairway after a shot in the woods. He isn't keeping score and he is trying to learn to make golf shots. Chopping the ball out from the weeds is NOT a good way to keep someone interested. Once he can consistently hit the ball in the general direction of the hole, then the rules get stricter. Keeping someone who shoots 120s to the strict rules of golf surely makes for a very long round and in my opinion actually retards their development in the game. Lots of bad swing habits get ingrained when you are always hitting under/over/around/through trees and bushes, not to mention the frustration that can probably ruin the game.

BUT, if you think you are good enough to make a wager (regardless of how good you actually are) you bet your **s that I'm gonna enforce every single rule.

Yes, he means when you make contact with the sand. No penalty for taking a practice swing while not at address and without contacting sand. The bunker is a hazard. You can't touch the ground with the club in the bunker, just like you can't inside the line on a water hazard...but your practice swings without touching the sand are legal.

Correct. If you watch most pros, they will actually take practice strokes outside of the bunker to avoid the risk (at least when I watch tournaments). I believe even dropping your club in the hazard (sand trap) prior to taking your actual shot is considered a penalty.

If you noticed, I made a distinction between practice shots (contacting the ground) and grounding the club in the bunker. There are folks who are completely ignorant on the rule that they will actually take practice shots. Others know not to take practice shots, but yet they lay their club in the sand behind the ball prior to making their swing. Both are penalties.

Yep...another thing that I think some people don't know is that you cannot GROUND a club in a hazard, but if you are in a hazard that has tall grass or weeds, etc, that grass does not count as ground. So if you're walking through there looking for a ball, your club need not avoid the tall grass. You are just not allowed to actually ground the club.

There are two types of golf:

Golf and GOLF PLAYED BY THE RULES.


And the two are completely different! ;-)

OK, so here's a question then, I may still be doing it wrong. Since you can't ground your club in a hazard, and on the putting green on a windy day you don't ground your club so that you have not addressed the ball, when are you at address in a hazard?

Reason I ask is I will get over the ball in a bunker, and get my feet in in the way I like them, and take a couple of practice swings over the ball(never touches the sand). Since I haven't grounded a club, am I at address? I've always operated under the basis that I was good as long as I didn't touch the sand.....

Definition:

Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.

Now I'm confused, can you perform a 'waggle' as long as the club head doesn't pass the ball while addressing the ball in a bunker?

Shag,

You may waggle all you want, you just can't touch the sand. However, if your ball moves, you are considered to have addressed the ball when you have taken your stance.

Kevin

even past the ball is OK.

In Golf you are your own ref, you know if you took a practice swing or if it was a wiff.

My problem comes with remembering not to ground the club when im in a hazard such as a dry creek bed, I quite often forget.

OK not to thread Jack but how about the guy who after a bad shot always drops another ball and uses it as practice? Played with a guy who did that on almost every chip shot. We werent really playing too serious of a game but after a while it got a little old. I dont mind the occasional I want to see if I can do that again shot. But enough is enough.

I played once with a guy who would do this after a missed putt, while others were waiting to putt. That ended when I swatted one into a greenside bunker.

That cost me a tournament victory this Summer. I totally forgot about that and grounded my club.

As I was doing it, my competitor said, "Remember, you're in a hazard!"

Needless to say, the next few words out of my mouth were not family-friendly- he he he!


If you're in a hazard like that you can take practice swings in the air and if your club hits some long weeds or fescue grass, it's not considered grounding your club.

I played a league match this past weekend, a very close match that ended in a tie. On #17 my opponent went into the woods in a red staked area and took maybe 4 major ground hitting practice strokes before addressing the ball and punching it out. I still question myself on this, but since he was such a great guy, had bought my lunch, and we were having a good time, I elected to say nothing. I believe he was just not thinking at the time, obviously.

If this had been a tournament, I would have called him on it for sure. My philosophy is if I play by the rules, play a variety of courses in different weather conditions, over time, my game is going to be much stronger than the guy who plays the same course, takes the mulligans, rolls the ball in the fairway, etc. At the end of the day, I want people I play with to say "hey, that guy has a really good game".

In stroke-play, I believe it is penalty as the only ball you should strike is the one that is in "play". Can't reference the official rules or the stroke penalty, but it isn't allowed if you are counting your score. In match-play, once the hole is completed, I don't believe there is penalty for "practicing" before you begin the next hole.

You should gauge the appropriateness of the action. If you are having a friendly round with a buddy, the course isn't busy and the action doesn't bother you...let it go. If it's busy or you don't like...you have 2 choices, either don't play golf with him or let him know (verbally or non-verbally) it bothers you. I've had friends who did it...when it became inappropriate, I would take my next shot and begin walking (to the green or next hole). He got the picture...

I've had another friend who continually requested (mind you...he didn't ask) to use my clubs. I'm pretty picky about my equipment (and again, there are rules on this)...when his requets got up to using my woods...I told him "no" and quite honestly just stopped playing golf with him. I just didn't care to be put in that situation and ironically enough his pace of play, knowledge of the rules and ettiqutte came out in other areas of the game which affected more than just our group.

It's interesting, as Skaffa suggests, that those who cheat probably bend other rules or ettiquette. Wrong attire on the course, repeated use of a cellphone at the wrong time, borrowing golf balls and clubs, and the list goes on...

Generally speaking, golf is a social game where you spend 4+ hours with a small group of people. If it is not an enjoyable experience, don't repeat it. And that "enjoyable experience" should encompass all aspects of the game, from the moment you are all together to the moment you all separate. Hey, that even extends to planning the day over the phone beforehand- sometimes there are clues there like asking to change T-times 48 times, being late for the T-time, etc.

Life is to short for things to suck. If your day sucks, don't repeat it.

i have a buddy who cheats all the time and it annoys the piss out of me...i never lose to him but hell cheat to make things close. he'll never play for anything as he knows i'd probably call him on some of his crap but even in the non-competetive rounds we play i still get annoyed. he switches balls during holes all the time...hits a rock flite off the tee and subs a pro-v there after. that actually doesnt annoy me, but when he fixes his lie in the rough it does. he "finds" a couple balls each round that are clearly OB or lost, marks the sand before every bunker shot, fixes his lie in the rough every time, etc, etc. he'll even take a practice putt on the first green or two to get the speed, which i really dont mind if youre doing it on a different part of the green than your actual putt, but hell just roll his putt for practice once before he actually putts it...gets the line and speed. i mean there are only so many duck hooks that the woods spit out. so on days when it really annoys me ill just start following him to his ball since we're usually looking for it in the woods or rough anyways and ill make sure i can see his every move. if i go to my ball before finding his he'll sure enough find it every time and it'll somehow be in a perfect lie not in the woods with a clear shot of the green. i watch all his bunker shots so he doesnt mark the sand...but he still does...hes mastered adressing the ball and touching the sand right before he swings so he thinks i cant see. all this wouldnt bother me if he was shooting in the 90s or something, even 80s...but he he'll claim he shot 77 when he really shot like an 87 and that bothers me. last time we payed at a real prestigious course and i followed him around for his tee shots and he lost 4 balls on the first 6 holes...i dont know why i get so annoyed and have to make sure he's playing "fair"...maybe its just that im over competetive and hate when he claims to shoot scores close to mine...maybe i should chill out since hes my bud and its just a game...by the way i never used to follow him its only when he started "consistently shooting int he 70s" this summer after hardly ever breaking 85 last year when he played more golf. oh well sorry for the rant just venting

Just a casual observation...you won't let it go. Honestly, you are at a point where you should stop playing golf with him (or at least not take score). If you feel that you have to follow him around so that he "plays by the rules", it means 2 things...you don't trust him and his actions bother you (and will keep bothering you).

I have some friends I don't play golf with...just a decision on my part because I didn't think it was worth losing a friend because of their poor respect for the game. You can do what you think is best, but if you continually playing golf with him...at some point...it'll hit a boiling point, you'll vent at him and it won't be pretty.

If you decide to stop playing golf with him, he'll figure out that you are "avoiding" golf with him and either find others or ask you about it. You can then decide if you want to tell him the truth or just tell him a "white lie".