I have question about walking/standing on someone's putting line. What's the deal with this piece of etiquette?

I mean, why was it established and what does it prevent?

The only thing I can come up with is cheating... I guess if I was standing/walking on someone else's line I guess I could drag my feet, or twist up some turf.

But aside from cheating, is there any other reason?

I personally think (outside of the cheating aspect) it's a very stupid etiquette. I mean, balls are literally pelting the surface of the green all day, people are walking all over the green all day, flagsticks are being dropped all day. So why should it bother me that someone who is trying make a legitimate putt has to straddle my line in some weird way?

I tell people all the time I'm playing with to not worry about my line, I just think this must be some hold over from back in the day. I can't believe (again, outside of pure cheating) that this is a big deal.

But maybe I'm missing something.

I've played with guys who share your opinion to some degree and it can be disconcerting when they "brow beat" the rest for worrying about walking on a line. That teasing alone is enough to make you think bad thoughts over a 5 footer.

More to your question. First, all ball marks can be fixed but spike marks and foot depressions cannot. So, if I'm lining up my putt and all of a sudden someone steps on the line (usually the heaviest guy on the foursome) all I can see and think about is what the ball will do when it gets there! That's 3 putt thinking for sure!!!

The turfgrass will compress and rebound many times during the course of a playing day but it takes several minutes for footprints to fully or at least partially return to normal "flatness". Therefore, if you walk on a putting line, it certainly can have an effect on the balls intended direction.

The vast majority of golfers will thank you or at least respect you for walking around a line the long way. Once in a while I've stepped on a line accidentally and feel absolutely terrible. Then if the guy misses, I quickly walk to the next hole and hide! (It's usually that big guy again)

If you don't like the fact that you aren't supposed to step in someone's line, I cant wait to hear what you say when you find out you need to stay out of their through line as well!

Kevin

The practice is intended to reflect 2 fundamental precepts of the game....... courtesy and equitability. First, it is out of courtesy to your playing partner(s), whether or not they be competitors, that you do not step or walk on their intended line of play, or the area immediately beyond the hole of that intended line. Second (and following the rule changes governing "stymies"), a player is entitled to play his/her shot without any intentional obstruction or interference by his/her playing partner or competitor.

Hope this helps................, but common courtesy alone should be basis enough.

What's the "Through Line" is that were you stand down the line of their putt, but not on it?

Also, this is all just etiquette right? There are no penalties for these infractions right?

The only person who really gave me something to hold on to (although it's more of physics answer and I'm not sure how much study has been done on it) is the person who said it takes awhile for a foot print to bounce back.

So other than that, no one really know why this etiquette was established?

Most of the posts have been "etiquette for the sake of etiquette" and no real hard proof that it matters.

BTW, this isn't me saying I don't do it properly, it's just something that a few of my buddies don't really care about, but a few do. And for my money, I can't see a difference from someone walking/standing on my line or balls pelting the surface all day or people walking/standing on the surface all day. I personally think this is a mental thing with people and it's something that has been engrained. I have one buddy who will move the smallest of debris, I always picture him pulling a Caddieshack with the dustbuster.

Here are 2 decisions talking about stepping in your own line, as well as stepping in someone else's. In stepping in a line of putt, you may inadvertently cause or fix damage. Either would create a problem. To summarize, be careful if you are stepping in someone else's line. Why not just pay attention and stay out of it?

Kevin

16-1a/12 Player Walks on Line of Putt
Q. A player walked on his line of putt. Did he incur a penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a?

A. Yes, if he did so intentionally. No, if he did so accidentally and the act did not improve the line.


16-1a/13 Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player’s line of putt. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable.

In equity (Rule 1-4), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition.

The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii).

In a tournament setting or playing for money, I wouldn't have a problem at all. But during the weekend, even if you are scoring your card for handicap, it just seems like...GET OVER IT, I don't think anyone is going to damage your line by stepping on it. There's a guy in our group that takes by far the longest to putt and he actually hates when we step on his line. But we also 99% of the time let him putt last, 1. because he likes to walk around both sides of his line and read a lot, 2. to hurry things up. But there are times when I'm trying to putt out and have to do some sort of wierd contortion to hit my ball in from 2 - 4 feet. BTW, if we waited for him to read/putt and then we go, our rounds would be even longer than they are now... and we run about 4:20 (unless we have the other slow guy, then you are looking at closer to 5:00).

Anyway, thanks for the info Kev... I guess the thought process is that you are entitled to the surface when you ball reached the green. So for that, I guess I get it.

I appreciate the fact that the point of your posts is to speed up the game. You definitely have the right idea for every day play...

Kevin

In response to your "Get Over It" comment, I would be very careful about taking that attitude when you are talking about someone who decides that a long-standing piece of etiquette just doesn't apply anymore to them. How about I cough or start talking to the other guy as you're in your downswing? After all, you should be able to concentrate. Get over it.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, but the point remains, there is a long-standing etiquette piece(also had to do with players having metal spikes back in the day), and someone who decides it doesn't apply to him tells me a)he's an a**(unless he realizes what he has done an apologizes, then it's forgotten) and b)I want to get the round over with and never play with him again. Anyone who says you could get paired with him in a competitive round would be wrong, because competitive players actually hold these things very scared.

As far as speeding up play, quite frankly, the problems are not from having to walk around a line. There's probably a dozen more important things some or all the guys in your group need to do first to speed things up. I've never had a problem finishing in a decent time, and I always walk around marks. It just doesn't add any time. If the time this guy spends on the greens are what holds things up, frankly he needs to be told he either gets to keep reading his puts the way he is doing now, or he gets to play with you guys, but not both. Maybe there's more you're not telling us, but I'm just amazed that, based on what you wrote, it's the fact the guy doesn't want you to step on his line that evokes the post.

I have to disagree with Kevin. Speeding up play is alaywas important. But doing by walking all over the green when players have not putted out is not the way to do it.

Point taken.



Kevin

While i agree that staying out a persons line is always proper etiquette, unless the course is unusually wet where a footprint will stay for more than a minute or two, walking in a persons line will have no effect, other than mental, on a putt. If the green is sufficiently wet so as to retain a foot indentation, then relief can be sought, but this circumstance is easily determined when you first step on a green. When, on a dry green, if a person makes a huge deal of someone else walking on their line, they are doing so less due to actual effect on their ball and more cause of the breach of etiquette. Complaining for the sake of complaining is not something i am fond of in general. As i have gotten older, it seems that people have less and less understanding of accidental breaches of etiquette

Well first of all, if stepping in a person's line can have no effect, then please explain to me all the crap I see near the hole from people who can't pick up their feet. The greens are just as bad as they ever were during the metal spike days around the cup. It's the attitude that with softspikes you can't do any harm to the green that has made people forget they need to pick up their feet when they walk. I'm sorry you consider that complaining for the sake of complaining. Maybe it will make you feel better that your post really seems to be nothing more than posting to see yourself posting?

And quite frankly, I have never had an accidental breach of this bit of etiquette not be noticed and apologized for immediately. As I mentioned, it's forgotten immediately as well. It's the people who do it and don't think it's ay kind of deal at all that get on my nerves. Fortunately I rarely play with incosiderate people such as them, so it's a situation I rarely come across.

I can understand the point about how with people stepping all over the green prior to your being there and balls leaving marks and divots that one person stepping on your line wouldn't make a difference. The problem is that golf is a game of an incredible number of variables and adding to those variables when avoidable is illogical. I stayed at my home course quite late one time to keep putting with my teacher. It was completely dark so he brought a car over to the green and turned on the lights so we could keep putting. That effect (artificial light on an otherwise dark green) really brought out all the marks. You could see tons of footprints and other marks on the green and when I putted I could see my ball sometimes take a small hop over a slight indent. After that, I was especially aware of stepping in other people's lines and when other people step in my line. There was one putt I think Sergio or Padraig hit from about 10-12 feet today and it was looking center cut but it just took a hop to the side. A small indent from a footprint can definitely cause that. If I had a putt that was center cut but took a hop right where someone had stepped in my line, you bet I'm going to be pissed at them. It really does make a difference I believe. I really don't think it's asking too much of people to avoid stepping in your line.

I didn't see this get answered for you... it means that you don't step on the other guy's line beyond the cup, as well as up to it. If the other guy runs his fifteen footer three feet by, it's nice to have not stepped on the other side for his come-backer.

But that's not just walking in a line, that is damaging the green, two different things. If we are playing a dry green and i simply walk in your line, i have not done that damage and the green will bounce right back. However, the 50-100 people who played before you did, but again, that is not walking, that is draging and damaging. I beleive, and Kev can correct, that if i walk your line and damage the green, it can be fixed.

A known breach of etiquette should always be apologized for.

And the italicized really doesn't bother me, this board is a little high strung.

I think I've gotten in trouble for both sides of this issue.

Lighten up guys!

Kevin

16-1a/13 Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player’s line of putt. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable.

In equity (Rule 1-4), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition.

The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii).

I remembered that from another post, thanks Kev.

Also consider the speed of the greens....
on slow muni greens it might not make as big of a difference....but on very fast country club greens it does.

The faster the green, to greater the effect of gravity (e.g. putts break more), and the more suceptible a putt is to be thrown off line due to imperfections in the green (e.g. ball is rolling slower for a similar length putt and therefore is more easily bumped off line).

A couple extra points to consider.

As for the "Get Over It" comment...it's not hard to avoid stepping in another player's line. It doesn't matter if you don't think it matters, if your playing partner thinks it does, he's in the right as far as proper etiquette goes. In the end it'll only take a few more seconds for you to walk around the long way...."Get Over It!"

It takesa couple of minutes for the green to rebound from someone's footprints. While players playing all day does have an effect on the green (see Dave Pelz and the "lumpy donut"), it more or less evens out all around the hole.

I'm going to respond to all the comments in this post, instead of responding with multiple posts.

1. Some of you may have taken offense to my "GET OVER IT" COMMENT, but failed to read the rest of the post where I said, that I put my body into all kinds of weird contortions to putt out. I don't walk on other people's line, I just didn't get the point of the etiquette...and lets be clear, it's not a rule. The "get over it" comment wasn't about tounament play, it wasn't about playing for money, it was about weekend play with buddies on a muni. The greens we play on are so hornked up (a word my Engineer uses a lot) with unfixed pitch marks, sand, spike marks, etc... So my point is, why worry about someone standing on your line, I just can't believe it's going to affect the ball that much, there are way more issues with the greens then that. But again, I follow the etiquette!

2. J. PETERMAN...err, Jcrew kind of makes my point while arguing against me...





Now, if you are saying you stayed late after everyone left and the headlights showed off all the footprints and whatnot, then I can't believe I'm doing some major damage that isn't already there. Again, people are walking on and hitting balls on this green all day. And a pitch mark probably can't be fixed perfectly, even that is an estimate of what the green was like before impact.

3. Like I said above, this is just etiquette and if it something like this was really that important, they would make it a rule...not to mention, why is fixing these on a fairway or in a bunker not allowed (or get relief). I have landed perfect drives in huge divots... I play it where it lies. I have ended up on the side slope of a bunker in a footprint...and I play it as it lies. I get that Putting is a big part of golf, but it just seems to me like everyone wants a perfect surface when putting.

4. Bluefan, I think you missed another part of my post... what the hell man, did you just read the first lines, or just the stuff in all caps???... anyway, my point wasn't that I was having to walk around the line, it was my playing partner who does take a lot of time putting and he checks the front side of his putt, then walks all the way around to the backside and then goes into his preputt routine. So my point was, that we (my entire group) normally let him putt last even if he's away, because we figure he can take that extra time to check his putting line from every angle and it won't take as much time. But for us to putt out first, it means having to stand all crazy-like while straddling his line. But again, I try and follow the etiquette, not saying I'm 100%, I may forget. Actually, the only time I think I may do it now, is when I thought someone putted out and didn't see their ball marker. Then I say "sorry."

Well, hopefully I answered everything. My whole reason behind this post wasn't to get the etiquette changed or anything, it was to first see what the purpose of the etiquette is (and the post that said it could take a few minutes for a footprint to bounce back, was about the most believable scientific info posted...but I think the other post that said it's really just a mental thing that messes with people is probably a more accurate one) and the second was to see what people thought about this in terms of weekend golf and pace of play.

So I guess most people are saying, forget pace of play for this issue... Etiquette and being considerate of other players should rule.

That's fine... I don't have a problem with it.

Well "GET OVER IT" did get me going, I will say. I believe it was here that someone posted an indentation from a footstep is to a golfball what a curb is to a car? NO it's not a tournament, but that person paid good money, and why should I or someone else possibly wreck their chances of making a putt by stepping in their line? As far as me talking in the backswing, I hold etiquette far too sacred to do it intentionally over something like that if it's done once. If it happens several times I will speak quite loudly well before a backswing about it. The point was, the etiquette is there for a reason. Not everything is particularly obvious right at the moment(see Michelle Wie and the scorecard), but it's there for a reason.

BUt again, like I said, if this guy's routine is making you have to do all this on the green, there's bigger issues here. You mentioned you guys do this to try to speed things up, and you're still coming in at 4:20, and if this other guy shows up, it's 5 hrs. If you want to play with these guys, by all means go ahead. But frankly if their routines on the green are the reason your group has these times, then well, these guys need a talking to. They are being selfish, frankly. For a 4:20 pace, the best you are going to get is "that is bordering on slow play." 5 hours is slow anywhere.

I think you're being way too nice a guy doing all that contorting yourself, etc. These guys need to move their a^%es IMHO. You shouldn't have to be contorting yourself all the time, you should not have to be in a position of possibly violating a big piece of etiquette. It just hit me that I have written a lot to get to this simple point: You shouldn't be questioning why you don't step in a line and it would save time. You should be questioning why your playing partners are putting you in this position in the first place. Consistently. The issue is not stepping in someone's line to save time, it's these guys' pace of play. If marking a 4 footer is making you feel like you'll be holding things up because of this, then the issue is not with the etiquette.

That would actually be a Caddyshack II (Electric Boogaloo).

That scene and the scene when Dan Ackroyd says about Jackie Mason, "I'll terminate him with extreme prejudice." and Robert Stack responds with, "We tried that already. It didn't work" were the two high points for me in an otherwise disappointing movie.

True. I was referencing the "series" as a whole, not the individual movie. But the "Electric Boogaloo" reference was sweet!

I believe the key is to avoid walking across other's lines, but if it does happen by accident, don't freak out about it. I have seen some people get totally upset when it happens, which is ridiculous.

I will actually sometimes walk in my own line if I have a long lag putt and I need to better understand the details of the green closer to the hole.

Can someone clarify the putting line for me? Especially rule 16-1e.
The putting line is from the ball to the hole, correct? Does the putting line ever extend behind the ball? That means I may only ground my club behind the ball only for the purpose of addressing the ball, but not to align my clubhead - is that correct?

Line of Putt: The "line of putt" is the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole.

Line of Putt
The "line of putt" is the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole.

16-1e. Standing Astride or on Line of Putt

The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.

You may stand behind the ball to align your club-head as the prohibition on standing astride the line is just during the stroke.

Kevin

Thanks for the response, appreciate the explanation.

I am digging this up as a result of a search regarding the ettiquette of not stepping on the "through line" of the putt. This polite prohibition is something I was not aware of.

Can someone help me with an approximate commonly accepted distance past the hole that would still be considered as being on the through line? Let's say for a flat putt. Obviously, one should adjust this plus or minus depending on the slope.

I would be willing to guess maybe three feet (on a flat green). But I would be real surprised to hear if it extends all the way off the green.

In any case, I was mildly surprised to learn of this piece of good manners. After all, in a foursome there will be four putting lines to the hole and four through lines. I can see all kinds of hop scotch dance steps trying to mark one's ball (I am just being a bit facetious, but still ...).

A related point that I would make is that I wish more golfers carried a ball marker that is easily visible. I have stepped on lines before , inadvertently of course, but I am most likely to do so if I don't see the ball marker because it is the color of the green (or the brown in some cases). We old toots sometimes have vision issues even if we can spot the refreshment-cart girl from two fairways over.

Here is the situation I am seeing more and more often..... A player walks to the green and marks their ball, cleaning it and putting it in their pocket. Now, they have replaced the ball with a small marker, likely the color of dull silver or something like that. That marker might be 20 or 30 or 40 feet from the hole. At that point, how is anyone supposed to see where they are at, or avoid stepping in their line. Personally, I typically will mark my ball, pick it up and clean it and then immediately place it back on the green. Unless it is in someone else's way or might distract them.

I have started using ball markers the size of poker chips. At least I can find them after I put them down. Some of the older old toots, well maybe no.

I usually go about 4' or so for the through line (it's really not that hard to avoid)...the more important line is obviously the normal line.
If somebody gets in a huffy because you stepped on their through line 6' past the hole just tell them they should practise more on their putting so they don't jam their first putt more than 6' past the hole.

A courteous player will pay attention to where his playing partners/opponents are. And if in doubt ask so they don't inadvertatly step on a players line. It's really not hard to keep track of where 3 other guys are.

I agree with you, and it isn't hard to see, most of the time. But can you answer the question, if a player is, say, 20 or 30 feet from the hole and not close to anyone else's ball, what is up with them placing a marker and then puting their ball in their pocket?

From my understanding it's a form of etiquette.
I like to putt/chip when I don't see anybody else's ball on the green. Not that it really matters....but it's just what I'm used to since everybody I know will mark and pick up their ball if they are able to. e.g. on the green.

The real matter is in regards to the rules. If I am on the putting surface and you don't mark your ball, if I hit your ball I get a 2 stroke penalty. So in fairness everybody just marks so they don't have to be constantly asked.

To add: Most players like to clean their ball before they putt and many use an alignment line when setting up their putt....so it only makes sense to mark it and go through the cleaning process when others are lining up their putts and such.

I'm thinking that you may be one of the people I am talking about ... I mean, the cleaning process??? You pick it up, check it if is ok, and put it back down. Or if there is dirt on it, you wipe it down with the wet towel you have with you, or you spit on it and wipe it with your dry towel. Takes about 20 seconds tops. You like to putt or chip without seeing any other little white balls to distract you? C'mon, this is getting a little silly...

Why is that silly?
Do you tee up your ball and leave it there when it's another player's turn?

Yes cleaning only takes about 10s MAX, but it still doesn't tell me why it is so important for you to put the ball back down right away....
Is it that big of a deal to keep the ball in your hand/pocket until it's your turn to play? I mean the ball isn't going anywhere, and I promise you'll still get a chance to putt...we won't forget about you if that is what you are worried about.

Back to my original point, it's COURTESY to mark and pick up so your ball is not in the way (regardless if whether or not YOU think it's in the way or not).

To add: If you read my post I said it was a preference not to see any white balls on the green. I can still putt/chip when I do see them, by why should I have to just because my playing partner doesn't have the common courtesy to mark and lift.
Along those lines I can still hit my tee shot just fine with somebody yelling in my backswing.....or somebody is playing with the velcro strap on their glove when it's my turn to play....but that doesn't change the fact that those actions are considered VERY bad form.

Well, actually down here in the South, we do all tee up our balls at the same time, after going through the cleaning process, of course. But then eveybody marks them and puts their ball in their pocket until it's their turn to hit driver, so that no one else is distracted. To do anything else would be terrible form...

+1

Emily Post, the most widely quoted authority on manners (read etiquette) wrote about the reason for good manners"

“Manners are made up of trivialities of deportment which can be easily learned if one does not happen to know them; manner is personality—the outward manifestation of one’s innate character and attitude toward life.”

As good sportpeople, we would never want to do anything that would put another competitor at a disadvantage. It is not what golf is about. Whether it actually harms another's ability to make a putt is irrelevant. That it has the potential to do so is reason enough to avoid it. If, for whatever reason, we violate another's rights, we should immediately apologize and do everything under rules of golf to rectify our error. We do this simply because it is the right thing to do. We do this because this is the way we would ourselves like to be treated. We do this because Karma is a powerful force in the universe - one that is not to be trifled with.

I clean the ball immediately after reaching the green. If it's not my turn to putt, the ball won't be on the green probably 90% of the time so as not to distract the other player. If I'm at a right angle to a player, I may go to replace the ball as he's making his stroke if I'm next to play.

If you're on the opposite side of the hole, mark your ball. If you're close to someone's intended line, mark your ball. If you're within 6' of the hole, mark your ball.

Shouldn't you be aware of the other 3 players to know when it's your turn to hit?

just thought this one should be repeated.