A couple of questions:

Are these two situations the same rules where you get Stroke and Distance?

In casual play if a player hits a ball and can't find it, going back to the tee box or where it was last played might not be an option with people waiting at tee box, etc.

How do you proceed with a situation like this with a ball lost or goes out of bounds?

Thanks for your replies!

Hit a provisional!

cant pick and choose which rules to play by, either play by them all or be a hack and play with none. Lost ball or Ob nees to re-tee. plain and simple. if in doubt, hit a provisional. If you didnt hit one then, its ok to feel stupid and ask the group the behind you if they could step back, so that you may hit another.

two part etiquette question about how to handle this situation...this is on a long downhill par 4 while walking as a single with the rest of your foursome in carts.


1 )
If you hit a clean drive and can see your ball has carried the green and come to rest near the tee for the next hole, but when your group finally gets down to where your ball landed you realize it has been liberated by the group who just tee'd off ahead of you?

2)

If the group behind you has already tee'd off by the time you figured you ball is ob/lost/stolen how do you go back and ask them to step off the fairway while you go back and tee off again?

3)
Is the rest of your group supposed to wait while you trudge back up the (big) hill for you to get a new ball in play or should they complete the hole and wait for you at the next tee?

This has come up before and pissed at least seven other guys on the course off, while all I was trying to do is play by the rules. I hate thinking I hurt other's games that day by holding up play.

How would you wrx's handle it? And don't say hit a provisional, I could see my ball from the tee, just not while I was walking down to it.

edit:speeling

1) The group in front of your is an outside agency. Drop a ball at the spot where the original ball came to rest and make your next stroke. No penalty.

2) Ask politely.

3) They should wait for you. However, for non-tournament play they could go ahead and finish out the hole so as not to hold up the pace of play unnecessarily.

If you don't want to go back and hit again because the group behind you might get upset. You can, interestingly enough, use the advice dispensed in earlier thread. Namely, you drop a ball in the fairway near where the original ball was, add three strokes to your score, and make your next stroke.

So, the strokes would go like this:
1. Drive, go the ball and realize that you can't find it or it's OB.
2. Drop a ball near the location of the original and take a stroke under the stroke and distance penalty. Since you are not taking the distance part of stroke and distance, that's a breach of the rules.
3. Take the first stroke of a two stroke penalty for breaching the lost ball or OB rule.
4. Take the second stroke of a two stroke penalty for breaching the lost ball or OB rule.

Your second shot would be your fifth stroke. Now in a tournament, I think you would want to go back and hit again because you could be DQ for committing a serious breach of the rules.

I started this exact discussion a few weeks ago. It's just down the page at

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169157

The gist is that dropping a ball where you think the first ball was lost, is playing from the wrong place, and is a two stroke penalty. Which is where you got the stroke count above. Two for stroke and distance, two for wrong place.

What's not clear is if doing so in the exact circumstances you name, is "a serious breach of the rules."

If you don't play from the wrong place, and you will not or cannot go back to where the ball was played from originally, you are left with the folllowing options.

-picking up, and taking an X.
-playing the hole with the described penalty, and recording your score with an X next to it. So you end up shooting 83X or whatever. If you turn in the score for a handicap, the score will be discarded, or you will get your max under ESC. Either way, it's up to your handicap committee.

Now here's the weird option. Play from the wrong place, finish the hole, record your score with penalties, THEN before you tee off on the next hole, declare that you played a ball from the wrong place on the previous hole, go play the hole over again, hitting 3 off the tee. Record the score you got, STILL adding two strokes to your final score for that hole. Record THAT score.

Blues Golfer,

While your post appears to me to be slightly twisted , I sure can't find fault with it in the rules or decisions books. I've learned a lot in trying to find a way to dispute your ruling...



Kevin

You are right. It is as weird to me as it is to you. In common everyday golfing, stroke and distance is sacrosanct. Either you play by it, or you are not playing by the rules. But honestly in today's game, on a public course, you just CANNOT go back. And a few courses I know have tried to say "no provisionals" either which is of course BS, but in the search for faster play, they are trying. So the USGA has a problem--their client courses are making it impossible to follow a fundamental rule of the game.

This decision seems to be an admission that, if you want to take a four stroke penalty, you can get around stroke and distance, OUTSIDE of tournament play. In a tournament, you'd play a provi (duh) but 99 percent of rounds in the US are not tournament, they are good-faith rounds turned in my us, the heart of the game.

And with ESC, it's a wash on your handicap anyway.

So yea, it's blasphemy to me too...but it's in the rules. You saw for yourself.

Exactly...you simply cannot go back and play another tee shot on most courses these days, at least in the interest of speed of play.

I can see it now playing on golf courses all over America...
After losing my ball, I walk back to the previous tee box and say, "excuse me, I need to replay my tee shot because I can't find my last shot". Said foursome (full of beers from the last three holes) at the tee box proceeds to tell me to, "go %^&@ myself, you are slowing us down, it is our turn to play."

Seems that many of the same golfers who are the first to complain about this rule are also the same golfers complaining about slow play; I wonder what following the letter of the rulebook on this one does to slow play????

Practicality on most days at most courses requires dropping nearest to where the lost ball was lost...taking stroke and distance and moving on. With the amount of lost balls on the average course, playing by this rule is simply impractical and slooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Hey all,

I'm glad I found this as I play with people all the time who don't realize the "stroke and distance" rule. Well, I came up with a compromise to having to tee up again if you didn't hit a provisional. And lets face it folks, you aren't always going to hit a provisional when your ball is OB. Sometimes you just won't know that it hit a rock and skidded off OB, even though you thought you were edge of fairway.

So I came up with if you end up OB, you take 2 strokes instead of one. But then I started to think at certain times it seems like that's not enough penalty, so I proposed that if your ball is lying OB, but hittable, you take 2 strokes (to help with the lack of penalty distance), but if you need to drop because your ball is lost or whatever, you take 3 strokes.

Sure, it's not exactly by the rules, but I think just automatically taking 4 strokes or something like someone else mentioned above is not so fair either... especially when in "real" play you would just go back and hit again. I think what I proposed to my buddies is the most fair way along with keeping up with pace of play.

Plus, I was reading in the rules that ...if you hit from the wrong place that your opponant can complain about too much of an advantage playing from that location.

What do you all think?

Whoa there, pardner.

I'm not making this up, this is in the Official Rules of Golf, not something I dreamed up.

Either you take stroke and distance, slow play be darned

OR you take an X,

OR you follow the stroke and distance AND wrong place, take your strokes and suffer,

OR you DQ for not playing by the rules.

Doing what you propose is a penalty for you, and if I agree to let you, a penalty for me.

This discussion was about following the rules, not playing Calvinball

This discussion is about 2 different points, namely what the rule is and how to apply the rules in non-tournament play. If in a tournament, play by the rules since agreeing to not abide by the rules is a breach. Your playing partners in a tournament are protecting the field by ensuring the rules are enforced. Tournaments don't play by ESC.
However in your casual round, ESC is in play. Over the course of your rounds those bad holes are dwindled down and factored in the handicapping system. Play the OB as a lateral hazzard. Play the lost ball from its likely spot and add one or two strokes. If you are concerned about what to tell someone what your score was that day, then tell them a number and say "with an aterisk". My point being, losing a ball out in the open or to OB was not going to be friendly to your score and likely approaches your ESC limit, so what are you trying to achieve? If the pace of play for the day allows for you to return to the tee then do so and if given the chance to apologize to the group behind you, then do so.
PS Make sure you putt everyting out too if this is such a concern lol (no gimmies)

Can local rules modify the stroke and distance rule?

A course I sometimes play has a few holes where the OB is another hole and the scorecard says that on these holes if the ball goes OB "bring the ball into fairway no closer to the hole with 1 stroke penalty." Has anyone ever heard of something like this? Is it allowed?

By the way, this course is run as a State Park and the people that run it don't seem to know much about the actual game of golf. I practice there because its never crowded and very inexpensive.

That kind of local rule, though apparently fairly common, is not permitted. Out of convenience and concern for pace of play, a lot of golfers in non-tournaments play follow that rule and variations on it with respect to lost balls and balls out of bounds.

Don't forget the issue of safety as a reason. Not always, but you are not going to find a lot of unaware weekend hacks during a tournament. However during the course of the golf season you will tend to get a lot of recreational golfers playing and if hitting from other fairways it could get dangerous. If they hosted a tournament then the course could go back to the original correct layout. The recreational golfer does't always care about such a trivial situation but he does care if he hits someone in the head.

Concur completely with Blues Golfer. HOWEVER, when my home course (a semi-private USGS course) is backed up, which is most weekday afternoons and weekend mornings, and which has many senior golfers of both sexes, the course Mahshall goes crazy when you take a provisional ball. And as far as going back to re-tee if you can't find your ball, no way in hell. So you are forced to drop a ball.

I know what you are saying, but many of the rules in the rules of golf involve "INTENT" and it's my personal belief that the rules at least with regards to OB in a casual round is unfair. My intent is to compromise and come up with something that would be fair for those of us not fortunate enough to have fore caddies or a bunch of people watching our shots throughout the fairway. I mean, is it really fair for these "pros" to have those advantages and we weekend golfers don't. We are penalized for not having a bunch of people around watching our balls.

I do agree, that if we aren't playing exactly by the rules all our scores should have an asterix. But no one can tell me that it's fair to say we HAVE TO GO BACK AND HIT AGAIN holding up the group behind us (who will no doubt pressure you for the rest of the round, if they don't just call player assistant) or taking a 4 stroke penalty everytime we end up with a LOST ball (I say LOST, since OB most likely will be easier for most of us to see and we would hit provisionals).

It's about equity, and this rule just benefits the Pro's way too much and creates what one person said as bloated scores that ESC will eleminate anyway. Personally, I think the USGA has to look at this rule and make some sort of change.

And let me say something about the "safety" aspect these OB markers are supposed to create. I personally think they make it less safe. Like there is this one hole that a buddy of mine hits at least 2 provisionals each time he plays it...sometimes 3 or ...whoa! even 4. And each time he does that his ball is heading toward the street where a car or person could get hit. So although they may think OB helps keep things safe, I think it really has the opposite affect.

But until things are changed, I will make sure to tell everyone my score is always with an asterix. Which from 99 percent of the people I have ever played with can say the same. I mean, come on, at least I'm taking some extra penalties, most just drop and take the one stroke!

Twist

As was stated before...many of the tournaments I've played in will treat fescue and "heavily-wooded" areas as an optional lateral hazard.

And it really does speed up play. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "I'm not going to hit a provisional, I'll definitely find that one." Five minutes later, that dude is taking the walk of shame back to the tee.

I think the statement at hand is "a casual round". You are always welcome to play it however you want, and simply not post your score, much like you would in a "practice round" where you hit multiple shots, try different things, etc.

Also, is there not a provision in the rules that if you are unable to finish a hole, that you can take a score of par plus any handicap strokes alotted you, or what you would have scored on the hole? I know that in a Match Play Tournament, I got my handicap strokes for the last few holes after the match was decided on #15.

In a tournament, we are all often very serious and strive to follow the rules. If we are just out playing a game and enjoying ourselves, let's give ourselves a break somtimes.

Of course if you and me are playing for money....DQ!!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy

Well, when I play with my friends (and foes...hehe) we all play under the same rules. So if we play for money, it's not like someone is going to say "well, your DQ'ed" since we are all using the same rules.

You know, I can handle every other rule (or at least I haven't found one I can't handle) except for this OB rule. It's the only one I think is unfair to the casual golfer.

Maybe I will just start counting those strokes like one of the other posters put (I think he said 4 strokes, although I thought it would be 3 ...one for OB, 2 for wrong place. I will have to go back and look), but I still don't think it's fair. It's unreasonable to expect those of us not in a tournament to go back and hold up the rest of the course. That's a disadvantage for us...and by the rules we get like double penalized.

Oh well... that's golf.

Last post on this dead horse...

It seems to me based on many of these threads on many sites and way many (99%) of the people I have ever played with play...

Maybe our problem is just talking about it and not emailing the USGA and forcing a change. They change rules all the time, so why not this one. It seems to be the least understood, the most unfair (for casual golfers, who may want to still keep an accurate handicap) and maybe even the most talked about.

I think a change is needed. I'm going to have all my playing partners email the USGA and ask for this rule to be looked at.

Twist

While you're at it, ask them if the ball can be dropped in the fairway too!

Twist,

Before attempting to change the world, I would recommend trying to learn the basics of the rules, along with how to look things up in both the rules and decisions books. Then attend a rules seminar and try to understand some of the history of the rules, along with who defines them, and who makes the changes. You may be impressed enough to realize that some very bright people administer the rules of the game, and they tend to make a lot of sense.

JAT

Kevin

I'm a very rules oriented person, I have only been playing the game 2 years and 100% of the people I have played with (including those I get paired with on the course) ALL CHEAT!!! Most of my regular playing group thought it was proper to drop for OB/LOST balls. I'm the one who had to point it out. I just had to explain to one of my golfing buddies (the best one in our group 7 handicap, and playing for 20 years, and very pompous about everything) that you can't pull a OB stake. I had him look it up and he was like "oh, I guess I was wrong."

But this particular OB/LOST ball rule is just unfair for most players on most golf courses. Sure, I guess if you are part of a private club, maybe they don't schedule groups every 10 - 15 min. But every course I play seems to schedule like a doctor's office would.

And the fact again that this rule is talked about so much on so many Golf forums and so many people get the rule wrong, it should say something to everyone that maybe these "smart people" got one wrong. Like I said, they change rules all the time, so it's not like they are perfect. I'm sure when someone created this rule it made sense...like maybe waaaay back in the day when there wasn't as many people (read: hackers) playing. So it may not have been a big deal to go back and hit again. But seriously, forcing us to take a 4 stroke penalty because we don't have the same oportunity as those in tournaments seems very egregious.

But, for the sake of all that's holy, I will go ahead and take 4 strokes...my handicap can't get any higher anyway.

Catch 22...

Problem is taking that 4 on more than one hole a round and everyone will call you a sand bagger.

Go back and hit a provisional by the rules,and the marshal kicks you off the course for slow play / disobeying local rules or your car gets keyed by drunks who are pissed because you held up their round.


This rule is abused/misunderstood more than any recently modified rules, so why cant this one be modified?

Why not just play a provisional when your ball may be lost or out of bounds. The rules contain an easy way to save time in the situation you are discussing. Just operate within the rules and you are fine. My opinion is still that the 4 shot penalty is not available to those who understand stroke and distance. Dropping a ball where it went OB would be a serious breach in that case. Just my opinion of course...

Kevin

xan_user,

Partially correct in my opinion. Most abused, but easy to understand. Folks just don't want to follow it...

Kevin

The number one complaint in golf seems to be the "slow play" , if this rule was fallowed by the 95 % of golfer that ether don't know it or ignore it we'd be looking at 7 hour rounds.
Where I golf its not easy to know when a hungry bush or deep rough has devoured your ball. If I hit a provision every time it goes near a bush or in the rough im slowing things down hitting multiples and searching for my first and or second ball depending on outcome.

So my options in the real world are..

Always hit a provisional if there's any doubt youll find the ball. This might be every other tee shot for some folks. And spend the time possibly retrieving the second ball if my first is in play.

Post an X cause there is no penalty for this situation other than re hitting. Not posting the round will increase a vanity handicap and taking the imaginary 4 increases the sandbag factor.

Walk back to the tee after a unexpected lost ball and piss everyone off in my group,frustrate the marshal and infuriate everyone playing behind me.

-Golfs worst intended rule IMO.

I was happy when I thought a 4 stoke penalty was legit for this sitch.
Now I am a cheater.
Now I have to figure out if I need to amend my incorrectly posted cards?

I guess I could start hitting into the group ahead of me so they could indicate if I should re hit.

Have you ever heard the term "drama queen?"



Kevin

If I repeated what the group who waited for me to walk back to the the tee and rehit said last time this happened I'd be banned from here, but "rule queen" is closer.

OK, how would you guys rewrite the 2 rules, lost ball and OB? Let's start with lost ball. What would be fair and save time? Using the 4 shot penalty idea, where do you drop? Do you really feel a lost ball should warrant a 4 shot penalty?

Kevin

3 strokes?

Drop is same as water hazard rule but one extra stroke for failing to play a provisional.


****************


Do you think if pros had to find their own balls in tourneys, without help of a team of spotters and spectators this rule would remain unchanged?

Maybe any different rules should only be for rounds played without the benefit of spotters.

How do you determine where to drop it? There are no lines as there are with hazards to determine where to drop from. You need to define how to pick a spot and what your options for dropping are. Do you think golfers are going to appreciate a 3 shot penalty?

Kevin

I think any thing less than 3 strokes might encourage abuse.

Not looking to eliminate the provisional, I just would like to see a rule added that helps speed up play when a ball is lost or unidentifiable and unplayable.

Drop would be along the line of ball flight where last seen.

I just spent 10 minutes writing a condescending answer, Instead, I'll just let your idea stand on it's own.

I post on this rules forum in an attempt to better learn the rules through the questions of others, and hopefully help others along the way. I should not have let myself get into a debate over opinion as to whether a rule is right or wrong. All it does is confuse everybody further.

Back to my original answer, please see rule 27.

Thanks,
Kevin

Either I've not played enough courses with marshals doing their jobs, or have not been caught in a slow play situation often enough, but if there are seriously courses where the marshals flip out about provisionals, that is ridiculous. I suppose you can't really police the difference between provisionals(someone ostensibly playing by the rules), and mulligans(the complete opposite), but still.

If they're that worried about slow play, get rid of the carts and the beer first.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem! hehe Just, kidding.

But seriously, you say it's easy to follow the rule...the only way it's easy is to hit provisionals anytime you can't see your ball...which could be 1/2 your shots of the day. And that will no doubt slow play, I can hit lots of shots quickly, but it's finding all those shots. Like yesterday, I hit one that was heading toward the road, so I hit a provisional, and that one sure as hell went to the road, so I hit again...perfect, straight down the middle. But I go look for my first ball and provisionals (mind you, I'm playing by myself), I find my first ball in play, but I don't have a shot at the green, so I'm going to bail out, but I don't remember what ball my 2nd provisional was, so I have to go pick that up first, otherwise, I might end up playing the wrong ball. I also wanted to find my 1st provisional (the one that went to the road for sure) but I coulnd't find it. Then I saw some guys on the tee, so I gave up on my 1st provisional, picked up my 2nd and hit my layup with my original ball. Now, if I was in a foursome and even 1/2 the group had to do this on every hole, man-oh-man...that would be some serious time.

Basically, I'm going under this... I'm hitting provisionals virtually anytime I think my ball will be hard to find or if I can't see it. For those times when my ball plugs deep into the ground and I can't find it...I just don't know Kevin says serious breach occurs with the 4 stroke penalty, but I also 99% of the time can't go back to the tee because my courses always have tons of people on them.

As your (Kevin) "where do you drop" ...well, there are very few hazards on my muni courses that are marked well. OB is actually the only thing that is marked. As for LOST balls, how is it any different than "guessing where you ball goes into a water hazard."

My personal thought is this...

You hit OB, but your ball is hittable... then take the LOST/OB stroke, and add one for the distance penalty. Because I don't know about you all, but there are plenty of times when these courses have the OB stakes in a way where it's like "why, there is plent of room beyond the stakes?" As for LOST balls, then you just play it like the ground in that area is a hazard and swallowed your ball...so drop in that area. But if you need to drop you take another stroke for a total of 3 penalties. If that's not enough, then I'm fine with 3 and 4 strokes.

But my point, there should be rules that govern these situations and should be fair to everyone, not just tournament players. Or, maybe the rules of golf should take out SLOW PLAY and not allow local course to set a slow play rule...actually, that would fix everything!

BTW, I'm very new to golf like I said, and the US Open was the first tournament I have ever watched. And that course didn't seem like it had one OB. Everything, even Rocco's shot way off line was still somehow playable. And beyond that, these "Pro's" had all kinds of drop zones. How fair is that? Granted, they have to play with grandstands and camera stuff on the course...but hello, they can see those, if they hit into them, to me, that should be too bad so sad. IT'S A HUGE GRANDSTAND! How did you not see it. But they get a free drop. Now, we are playing with a small group with no audience and we lose a ball (some times just off the fairway in deep rough) and we are screwed for the rest of the day because supposedly there is no rule that govern's this without going back and hitting again.

There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. I think the LOST/OB rule's spirit is not being applied.

777, Good luck with that.

Twist, do you know how many sub-80 rounds I've watched disintegrate in the airwake of a screaming tee shot that I watched, almost through tears, go out of bounds? The home course I grew up on STARTED with a 420 yard par 4, with 14 feet of rough on the left, and OB at the 15th foot. And I play a natural draw. It was probably the toughest starting hole in the state. Countless rounds were killed ON THE FIRST SWING.

Unfair? It's worse than unfair. It's a form of sadism.

It is the ultimate penalty. I can think of no penalty in sports as severe. You can be standing on the 18 tee and go from 70 to 74 in the time it takes for the ball to hit the ground. And then you have to hit a second one into play.

I play with strangers all the time...rarely does someone actually play a provisional. It's more common for people to just take a mulligan. I don't care. Play the game how you want.

My reason for playing by the book is simple. I shot 78 on a course I've never seen before, just two weeks ago. On the front nine, I hit a second shot out of bounds from the fairway, going for a par five in two. I took my drop, and ended the hole with a 15 foot putt to save bogey.

Eat that, Hades.

Although I agree with those who say you can't pick and choose the rules you play by. But in a casual round, the argument is probably moot. Since you're probably making double bogey or worse, the handicap computer is going to adjust your score accordingly.

I don't have a problem with the penalty in and of itself... it's the fact that it's probably the only rule in the book that is practically impossible to stay true to on the course unless you are playing in a tournament. Sure if I see my ball heading toward the OB stakes, I will hit a provisional, but what about those times you end up in the deep rough and know your ball is in bounds, but can't find it???

Like, this one time, I totally came under the ball and popped it straight up in the air about 40 yards and it came down just left of the fairway. Well, when I got over their, it was very wet and none of the four of us could find the ball. Now, I actually could have gone back and hit again in this instance as it wasn't that far. But the group behind us was carting over and it would have meant my group to clear the way as well. My point is, there is just no rule to account for non-tournament play. And all this provisional stuff adds time. And that is the only rule you can apply to a LOST/OB ball...you have to hit a provisional. There was talk of a 4 stroke penalty, but even that as I think Kev pointed out could be serious breach of the rules.

Why the USGA can't modify the rule so us playing on the weekend at full golf courses can't do so without having to slow up play.

I made a suggestion before, but it can be modified to be worse... But I still think it's a step in the right direction. The idea of any rule is to be fair and equitable...even though there are some pompous people who don't think the rules should change (although they change all the time).

My modified suggestion:

Hit the ball OB, but it's playable: 1 stroke for Lost/OB, 2 strokes for distance = 3 penalty strokes.

Hit the ball OB or LOST requiring drop: 1 stroke for Lost/OB, 2 strokes for distance, and 1 stroke for having to drop = 4 penalty strokes.

The only contentious issue could be the "area of the lost ball" and where to drop. But my thought would be to drop within two club lengths of the nearest OB marker, hazard marker or what would be considered the defining line of the hole.

Now, this really doesn't alter the way the Pro's would play this...they are still going to go back to where they last hit and hit again if they can't find their original ball. But for us weekend golfers who don't have those advantages, it allows us to score our round accurately and should help speed up play.

Now if I walk 200 yards to my ball and can't find it...I don't have to waste the time walking back and hitting again...I can just take the 4 stroke penalty and know I'm playing proper golf by the rules.