Just to check with other hounds of the rulebook...if you did not play a provisional, and your ball is lost or OB, the proper action is to drop a ball where the ball is belived to have been lost, or entered OB, add four strokes to your count, and hit five.
I was unaware of this until recently. This actually makes it plausible that everyone can follow the rules when they lose a ball, or it goes OB and they did not play a provi. (did you ever wonder if that's where Pro V I came from?)
Does anyone agree this is the rule?
Full Version: Don't want to play stroke and distance: take 4
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Never heard of this rule before.
The proper action (according to the 2008 rules of golf) is to return back to the tee box and replay your tee shot with a 1 stroke penalty (stroke and distance).
I know some courses (usually muni tracks) have local rules that allow you to drop where you think you lost the ball and take only a 1 stroke penalty (stroke but no distance) in the interests of saving time.
I prefer to play by the rules. I always hit a provisional if in doubt.
The proper action (according to the 2008 rules of golf) is to return back to the tee box and replay your tee shot with a 1 stroke penalty (stroke and distance).
I know some courses (usually muni tracks) have local rules that allow you to drop where you think you lost the ball and take only a 1 stroke penalty (stroke but no distance) in the interests of saving time.
I prefer to play by the rules. I always hit a provisional if in doubt.
Never heard of it and highly skeptical that it exists. BTW, what does this have to do with
"Where Pro V I came from"? Explain please.
EDIT: Oh, I get it, "provisional". I read it again. Pretty sure it means version 1
"Where Pro V I came from"? Explain please.
EDIT: Oh, I get it, "provisional". I read it again. Pretty sure it means version 1
QUOTE(Blues Golfer @ May 30 2008, 04:55 PM) 
Just to check with other hounds of the rulebook...if you did not play a provisional, and your ball is lost or OB, the proper action is to drop a ball where the ball is belived to have been lost, or entered OB, add four strokes to your count, and hit five.
I was unaware of this until recently. This actually makes it plausible that everyone can follow the rules when they lose a ball, or it goes OB and they did not play a provi. (did you ever wonder if that's where Pro V I came from?)
Does anyone agree this is the rule?
I was unaware of this until recently. This actually makes it plausible that everyone can follow the rules when they lose a ball, or it goes OB and they did not play a provi. (did you ever wonder if that's where Pro V I came from?)
Does anyone agree this is the rule?
Wow, I didn't know about that one. Did you find it in the rule book, or decisions book? Please let us know the rule number so we can check it out. If your rule book isn't handy:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules.html
Kevin
Proper action has always been to return to the tee (the walk of shame).
sounds like urban legend?
Never heard of it....would highly doubt that it is legit, IMO. Unless it is a new decision, but I am sure a rule like that would have been publicized.
Never heard of it....would highly doubt that it is legit, IMO. Unless it is a new decision, but I am sure a rule like that would have been publicized.
That would suck, 4 strokes?!!? lol. If you are a beginner or just playing for fun and don't hit a provisional. Just drop with a penalty where you think it was. But to be by the book you must go back to the tee hitting 3.
QUOTE(mizunogrrl @ May 30 2008, 07:32 PM)
You can always walk on back to the tee after looking and losing the first ball and play a provisional.
(The "rule" you propose sounds like an unofficial weekend local golf club "rule" than an approved governing body of golf rule.)
(The "rule" you propose sounds like an unofficial weekend local golf club "rule" than an approved governing body of golf rule.)
Mizuno Girl,
Please take a look at rule 27-2 for when you are allowed to play a provisional.
Kevin
27-2. Provisional Ball a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
I have WAY more experience hitting it OB! 
We are all here to learn from each other.
Thanks,
Kevin
We are all here to learn from each other.
Thanks,
Kevin
QUOTE(mizunogrrl @ May 30 2008, 07:46 PM)
Well, of course, Kevin. You're right.
I forgot about that instance. I'm always in the fairway or on the green off the tee. ^^ lol.
Mizuno Girl,
Please take a look at rule 27-2 for when you are allowed to play a provisional.
Kevin
27-2. Provisional Ball a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
I forgot about that instance. I'm always in the fairway or on the green off the tee. ^^ lol.
QUOTE(KevCarter @ May 30 2008, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE(mizunogrrl @ May 30 2008, 07:32 PM)
You can always walk on back to the tee after looking and losing the first ball and play a provisional.
(The "rule" you propose sounds like an unofficial weekend local golf club "rule" than an approved governing body of golf rule.)
(The "rule" you propose sounds like an unofficial weekend local golf club "rule" than an approved governing body of golf rule.)
Mizuno Girl,
Please take a look at rule 27-2 for when you are allowed to play a provisional.
Kevin
27-2. Provisional Ball a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
And Pro V1 came from a ball Titleist made back in the dark ages (early 90s) called the Titleist Professional, which in the next version was shortened to the Titleist Pro, V1 or Version 1.
That rule is from the same rule book that says you can kick it out of the rough if nobody is watching, or you can have another go at the first tee if you hit a bad shot becuse you are slightly hung over.
Needless to say, all rounds which contain a 'take 4' are now 'DQ'.
Needless to say, all rounds which contain a 'take 4' are now 'DQ'.
If this was a rule, then the ESC would basically kill from doing anything on that hole. If I am hitting 5 from next to OB then I have to get up and down from there to prevent my ESC limit of 7!
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?
A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.
In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.
>
So instead of hitting four, you'd be hitting six, essentially, a four stroke penalty. This decision is linked to playing from the wrong place. By dropping another ball where you either went out, or lost a ball without a provisional, you are playing from the wrong place, which is a two stroke penalty. Stroke and distance, plus two, is four.
I'm not sure that not walking back to the tee and hitting again, and swallowing a four stroke penalty, is a "serious breech" of the rules. I'm skeptical that it is in your typical, non-competitive round.
So, you hit a ball into the rough, no OB in sight, no hazard. You get down there, no ball. You search five minutes, still no ball. You had no reason to hit a provi, all you did was hit it in the rough. And since I walk all the time, you, in this made-up scenario, are too. You're 250 down the hole with three people you don't know, the next group is standing on the tee waiting to hit.
Are you going to walk back to the tee and hit another, or are you going to drop a ball and hit six?
The ESC question is a good one. I have never asked if a ruling like this would be an exception to ESC, where you took the eight on the hole because to not take it, WOULD b
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?
A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.
In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.
>
So instead of hitting four, you'd be hitting six, essentially, a four stroke penalty. This decision is linked to playing from the wrong place. By dropping another ball where you either went out, or lost a ball without a provisional, you are playing from the wrong place, which is a two stroke penalty. Stroke and distance, plus two, is four.
I'm not sure that not walking back to the tee and hitting again, and swallowing a four stroke penalty, is a "serious breech" of the rules. I'm skeptical that it is in your typical, non-competitive round.
So, you hit a ball into the rough, no OB in sight, no hazard. You get down there, no ball. You search five minutes, still no ball. You had no reason to hit a provi, all you did was hit it in the rough. And since I walk all the time, you, in this made-up scenario, are too. You're 250 down the hole with three people you don't know, the next group is standing on the tee waiting to hit.
Are you going to walk back to the tee and hit another, or are you going to drop a ball and hit six?
The ESC question is a good one. I have never asked if a ruling like this would be an exception to ESC, where you took the eight on the hole because to not take it, WOULD b
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?
A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.
In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.
>>
The ruling is, dropping a ball and playing it is playing from the wrong place, stroke and distance plus two extra. Dropping five, hitting six.
Whether this is a serious breech is a good question. In your average handicap, non-tournament round, I'm not sure accepting a four stroke penalty is a serious breech of the rules.
The ESC question is interesting too. If you are on the handicap committee, and I turn in an 8 on a par 4 (with a seven handicap), what do you do? Does the ascribed penalty over-rule ESC in this case? Do you lop off my score to a six, essentially erasing the "wrong place" penalty?
This happens. I see people hit it in the rough, no ob in sight, no water, just rough. No reason to think it won't be there...you get there, and no ball. Five minutes of looking, no ball. You are walking, not riding. You are playing with three people you don't know, and you are going to walk back to the tee, ask the guys standing there to move aside while you re-tee, and then hit?
Most of the people I play with will drop a ball and go on. Not saying it's right, just saying they do. Now suppose at the end of the hole he or she asks "what should I score it?"
Now you have an answer. Or do you?
THAT is why I asked the question.
[sorry for the double post--computer operator error]
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?
A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.
In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.
>>
The ruling is, dropping a ball and playing it is playing from the wrong place, stroke and distance plus two extra. Dropping five, hitting six.
Whether this is a serious breech is a good question. In your average handicap, non-tournament round, I'm not sure accepting a four stroke penalty is a serious breech of the rules.
The ESC question is interesting too. If you are on the handicap committee, and I turn in an 8 on a par 4 (with a seven handicap), what do you do? Does the ascribed penalty over-rule ESC in this case? Do you lop off my score to a six, essentially erasing the "wrong place" penalty?
This happens. I see people hit it in the rough, no ob in sight, no water, just rough. No reason to think it won't be there...you get there, and no ball. Five minutes of looking, no ball. You are walking, not riding. You are playing with three people you don't know, and you are going to walk back to the tee, ask the guys standing there to move aside while you re-tee, and then hit?
Most of the people I play with will drop a ball and go on. Not saying it's right, just saying they do. Now suppose at the end of the hole he or she asks "what should I score it?"
Now you have an answer. Or do you?
THAT is why I asked the question.
[sorry for the double post--computer operator error]
QUOTE(Blues Golfer @ Jun 1 2008, 11:34 PM)
The ESC question is interesting too. If you are on the handicap committee, and I turn in an 8 on a par 4 (with a seven handicap), what do you do? Does the ascribed penalty over-rule ESC in this case? Do you lop off my score to a six, essentially erasing the "wrong place" penalty?
Nothing would ever over-rule ESC. ESC is only used for posting handicaps. It doesn't change what you actually shot.
I see what you mean...If I've taken this four stroke penalty, is that a legitimate score played according to the rules of golf?
based on what I'm reading in the rulebook online, yes. I took two penalties, stroke and distance, and two more for playing from the wrong place, and I finished the hole and the round, and that's the score.
If I'm in a tournament, I may, or may not, be DQ'd, depends on the officials.
In a friendly wager, it's a choice...walk back or take four, and make a birdie on the next hole.
based on what I'm reading in the rulebook online, yes. I took two penalties, stroke and distance, and two more for playing from the wrong place, and I finished the hole and the round, and that's the score.
If I'm in a tournament, I may, or may not, be DQ'd, depends on the officials.
In a friendly wager, it's a choice...walk back or take four, and make a birdie on the next hole.
QUOTE(Blues Golfer @ Jun 2 2008, 02:38 PM)
I see what you mean...If I've taken this four stroke penalty, is that a legitimate score played according to the rules of golf?
based on what I'm reading in the rulebook online, yes. I took two penalties, stroke and distance, and two more for playing from the wrong place, and I finished the hole and the round, and that's the score.
If I'm in a tournament, I may, or may not, be DQ'd, depends on the officials.
In a friendly wager, it's a choice...walk back or take four, and make a birdie on the next hole.
based on what I'm reading in the rulebook online, yes. I took two penalties, stroke and distance, and two more for playing from the wrong place, and I finished the hole and the round, and that's the score.
If I'm in a tournament, I may, or may not, be DQ'd, depends on the officials.
In a friendly wager, it's a choice...walk back or take four, and make a birdie on the next hole.
If you were in a tournament, why wouldn't you just go back and re-tee?
It's an urban myth rule I happen to agree with.
I think if a player is OB they should have the opotion of a 2 shot penalty and playing from where the ball left the course.
This would save the time of folk walking back to the tee.
I think if a player is OB they should have the opotion of a 2 shot penalty and playing from where the ball left the course.
This would save the time of folk walking back to the tee.
No, it's NOT an urban myth. Why do you think I posted the actual text from the USGA website?
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/decisions/dec27.html
look down the page for this entry:
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
That's my point in writing this...dispelling the myth that it's never happened, and trying to find out if anyone here went through this scenario.
If I'm in a tournament and I am not at risk of getting a slow play penalty, then I would certainly go back. But I've been in tournaments where they nailed people with slow play penalties, and in that case, one would have to weigh whether it was worth the risk.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/decisions/dec27.html
look down the page for this entry:
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
That's my point in writing this...dispelling the myth that it's never happened, and trying to find out if anyone here went through this scenario.
If I'm in a tournament and I am not at risk of getting a slow play penalty, then I would certainly go back. But I've been in tournaments where they nailed people with slow play penalties, and in that case, one would have to weigh whether it was worth the risk.
Wow BluesGolfer, I had totally missed that decision! I thought this was really a bone headed thread, but now that you have shown us the decision, I feel it is a GREAT thread that I have learned from...
In my opinion, and I could be wrong, this decision protects an individual that does not know the rules, and is perhaps talked into proceeding in an improper manner.
I just got done playing in a two day tournament. I have a bad case of the driver yips, purely mental, but very real. The 18th hole has trouble left and trouble right, no way I could hit that that ball in play if I took 10 attempts. Hit twice and took an X. I didn't want to stand there all day. In this case, if I thought I could get away with it, and knew the decision, I would have thrown one down where the first ball was lost. Would this be in the spirit of the game? I don't think so.
In my opinion, if someone understands the stroke and distance rule, this decision in my mind would be settled as a serious breach, and the player would be disqualified.
What is your feeling of when a serious breach is reached in this case?
Kevin
In my opinion, and I could be wrong, this decision protects an individual that does not know the rules, and is perhaps talked into proceeding in an improper manner.
I just got done playing in a two day tournament. I have a bad case of the driver yips, purely mental, but very real. The 18th hole has trouble left and trouble right, no way I could hit that that ball in play if I took 10 attempts. Hit twice and took an X. I didn't want to stand there all day. In this case, if I thought I could get away with it, and knew the decision, I would have thrown one down where the first ball was lost. Would this be in the spirit of the game? I don't think so.
In my opinion, if someone understands the stroke and distance rule, this decision in my mind would be settled as a serious breach, and the player would be disqualified.
What is your feeling of when a serious breach is reached in this case?
Kevin
QUOTE(Blues Golfer @ Jun 2 2008, 03:30 PM)
No, it's NOT an urban myth. Why do you think I posted the actual text from the USGA website?
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/de...oons/dec27.html
look down the page for this entry:
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
That's my point in writing this...dispelling the myth that it's never happened, and trying to find out if anyone here went through this scenario.
If I'm in a tournament and I am not at risk of getting a slow play penalty, then I would certainly go back. But I've been in tournaments where they nailed people with slow play penalties, and in that case, one would have to weigh whether it was worth the risk.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/de...oons/dec27.html
look down the page for this entry:
27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played
That's my point in writing this...dispelling the myth that it's never happened, and trying to find out if anyone here went through this scenario.
If I'm in a tournament and I am not at risk of getting a slow play penalty, then I would certainly go back. But I've been in tournaments where they nailed people with slow play penalties, and in that case, one would have to weigh whether it was worth the risk.
I'm getting in this thread late and might have missed something above but it looks as though you are not reading the the ruling correctly. Stroke and distance means that you lose one stroke plus the distance that the ball traveled. You have to go back and play the ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. If you hit a tee ball OB you have to hit another ball from the tee, no exceptions. If you do not you are DQ.
27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played
In my opinion, not taking the stroke and distance penalty would generally be a serious breach of the rules because the ball would have traveled some distance and come to rest closer to the hole.
Getting back to the scenario where you are walking and are 250 yds down the fairway and there is a group on the tee, yada yada yada... What do you do? Per the rules, are you not allowed to post that score for your handicap? What I have done in the past, and somebody please help if I am wrong and you know the technicality, but I just mark it as an "X" on the scorecard, which means then it would be whatever max number is allowed under ESC. You technically don't have a score for that round, but per ESC it can still qualify for your handicap. Some of these situations aren't easily interpreted from the rule book.
Yes, I know what stroke and distance means, I know what the rule says. But I'll deal with the question a different way.
Imagine you are the head of MY handicap committee. And you get the following email:
Hi Bill,
Here is my score from Sunday, it's a 79X. I can't post it through our internet posting system, because I have to declare an X.
I lost a ball for no apparent reason (no OB, no squirrels, no hazard, just disappeared in the fairway or the rough. I plainly hit it in the fairway, but after 5 minutes I never found it). I dropped a ball where I saw the ball hit the fairway, and finished the hole.
What do I do about posting it for handicap? In the internet based system that our association uses, there AIN'T no X box. I can only enter a numerical score. I did not play stroke and distance because it would have slowed down play, and the marshal, who was of course standing right there, might have thrown me off the course if I tried to walk back to the tee. So I continued play and assessed myself a four stroke penalty on that hole, two for stroke and distance, and two for playing from the wrong place. That means I scored 9 on the hole. But under ESC, I adjusted it to a double, because that's my handicap directive for ESC. So I scored a 9X, and under ESC it's a 7, which gives me 79 for the adjusted gross."
YOU are the handicap chair. What are you going to do with my score?
Are you going to take the 79, or are you going to throw out the score because I did not play stroke and distance?
If you throw out the score, fine by me, it's your choice. But I'm supposed to post all my scores played by the rules of golf, and I did. As I read the rulebook, four strokes is the right penalty.
So, what's your choice?
Imagine you are the head of MY handicap committee. And you get the following email:
Hi Bill,
Here is my score from Sunday, it's a 79X. I can't post it through our internet posting system, because I have to declare an X.
I lost a ball for no apparent reason (no OB, no squirrels, no hazard, just disappeared in the fairway or the rough. I plainly hit it in the fairway, but after 5 minutes I never found it). I dropped a ball where I saw the ball hit the fairway, and finished the hole.
What do I do about posting it for handicap? In the internet based system that our association uses, there AIN'T no X box. I can only enter a numerical score. I did not play stroke and distance because it would have slowed down play, and the marshal, who was of course standing right there, might have thrown me off the course if I tried to walk back to the tee. So I continued play and assessed myself a four stroke penalty on that hole, two for stroke and distance, and two for playing from the wrong place. That means I scored 9 on the hole. But under ESC, I adjusted it to a double, because that's my handicap directive for ESC. So I scored a 9X, and under ESC it's a 7, which gives me 79 for the adjusted gross."
YOU are the handicap chair. What are you going to do with my score?
Are you going to take the 79, or are you going to throw out the score because I did not play stroke and distance?
If you throw out the score, fine by me, it's your choice. But I'm supposed to post all my scores played by the rules of golf, and I did. As I read the rulebook, four strokes is the right penalty.
So, what's your choice?
I would rule that since that you played under the principles of the rules you would post a 7 for the hole as you have described. I guess the DQ penalties are really only applicable in tournaments.
The USGA has a manual related to handicapping at
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html
Alternatively, you can get to it by clicking on the "The USGA Handicap System, 2008-2011" link at
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/handicaps.html
The USGA has a manual related to handicapping at
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html
Alternatively, you can get to it by clicking on the "The USGA Handicap System, 2008-2011" link at
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/handicaps.html
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