we r not playing for a living and just to have a good time, so if it can improve my game i dont give a hoot but what does you other guys think?

Doesn't matter if you're playing for a living or not, golf has a handicap system to allow those with varying skill levels to play a round and be competitive with each other, by using illegal equipment you're unable to count those rounds against your handicap.

Golf is the only sport that allows it's fans to be able to play the same equipment, and on the sames courses as the professionals play, and all under the same rules.

Once people start thinking that they should be able to play what ever they want regardless of the rules we start to have a split between what the pros use and what the armatures use.
(yes, I know that the pros equipment is often different than what you see on the shelves at the store, theirs has been fitted and adjusted more than ours)

Golf as a sport has rules, using non-conforming equipment violates those rules, so when you play in a foursome or in a tournament you would have an unfair advantage compared to those that aren't using juiced equipment. It's like saying a pitcher can throw a spit ball because he isn't getting paid and who cares.

Basically, by playing with juiced gear you're cheating, pure and simple.

Why? If he never bets a dime, competes in a tournament, or ever keeps a score who cares what he plays?

There are plenty of people who play golf just to get out of the house and relax for a while. If they get enjoyment out of playing non-conforming clubs or 18 clubs in their bag why shouldn't they be allowed to? There are plenty of people across the world who play golf and don't keep a handicap or come within a mile of sniffing a competition. As long as you're not impeding others from enjoying the game, who really cares what anyone else does?

Agree with the last poster. If you are going out there for the fun of it, who cares? If you cheat and record it in a handicap it only works AGAINST you. I wish the manufacturers would come up with a club that was non-conforming but really helped the average golfer.

The vast majority of golfers do not keep handicaps or compete in tournaments. If we could build a club that would help them enjoy the game more and play faster, why not do it?

I always thought there are the physical and spiritual sides of golf.
Who cares but yourself if you play the great game by the rules? I had seen beginners on the course teeing up every shot except for putting surface, and it's fine to keep up the speed of play and give the beginners confidence in playing the game.

If you use illegal golf equipment, it's kind of like ripping yourself of the rewards this game could have given you. Do you go out and say that you had a 300 yard drive and shot par, oh by the way, I had forgotten to mention I used illegal drivers and golf balls .

My friend, you'll rob yourself the ultimate reward this game could have given you.

Agree with this as long as its just yoiu and no one is disadvantaged. I've seen some guys play with 15 clubs because they wanted to - they declared it and weren't in any kind of nassau and it was fine. If they were playing for money or in a competition, they would be at 14 and everything else would be by USGA rules.

I understand the thoughts of saying that without playing for money what is the big deal.... But on the other hand, for example, I will never play professional basketball and rarely keep score or stats, but I still know that in order to play correctly I must dribble the ball when moving around on offense and I can not cream the other player when on defense. Regardless of playing for money or not, there are rules to games and golf is a game in which I believe rules should be applied. just my 2 cents

That's a good point, but a slightly different case to me. In basketball you're directly competing with others. I agree that if you have any sort of competition with others even if it's just penny skins you should follow every rule exactly. However, golf can be competition within yourself, with others, or just for fun, no competition necessary.

Do you dribble every time you're alone just shooting baskets?

Guys, the point isn't if you're cheating some one or not, the point is you're cheating yourself and the sport.

By using illegal equipment you're basically throwing out the rules of the game, and the one thing that makes golf so special is that we ourselves enforce the rules, we don't have refs.

Golf is the only sport that we get to play on the same fields as the pros, and to compare ourselves to them, you can't play a pick up game at Madison Square Garden, and you can't have the company softball game at Fenway Park, but you can play a round of golf at Beth Page Black, using the same equipment Tiger of Vijay used when they played there.

So if some one wants to play with illegal equipment they can, but their handicap is no good, and it's still cheating because you're going against the rules of the game.

Maybe I'm a bit of a traditionalist, but the way I see it is that the rules state what equipment is conforming and what isn't, if you're using non-conforming equipment you're breaking the rules and would be disqualified from tournaments for that.

You also miss the point that if you always play with non-conforming and then want to play in a tournament, you're not going to have the same distance and that's going to throw you game off, then again, since you don't have a valid handicap you won't be able to get into the tournament anyways...

It's a good debate. If you're just playing for "yourself" then drive a cart with two sets of clubs, improve your lie every time, ground your club in a bunker, etc etc... I know that's an extreme example, but there certainly has to be a line in the sand. What's cheating? A non-conforming club? An extra club? Improving your lie once? Twice? It's a slippery slope.

To each their own. I really don't care how YOU approach the game, I just know how I approach it, and I'm satisfied with that. Whatever makes the game more enjoyable for YOU- go for it.

To each their own. I don't have a problem with it, but I'd like to offer perspective on why I believe a lot of people don't share this view.

I always felt that I (like many others) compare my game against others (friends, pro's, leagues, etc) on an equal playing field. If I could buy an illegal driver or ball that lets me bomb 350-400 yards down the middle with a slow swing, what does that prove to me? How is that fun? The joy in golf for me has always been the pursuit of continual improvement and the challenge to execute shots that I know are good (as compared to others with equivalent tools) because of improvements to my skills and the ability to overcome the challenges inherent to the game. Yeah, I also enjoy having fun with friends, but I've definitely had my bad days where a "fun round" just isn't fun. Why?? Because it isn't just something you do to pass the time, it's something challenging that many folks find joy in overcoming.

You can tell yourself that you'd enjoy the game if it were easy or automatic, but I think it's in the pursuit and perseverance that we really find the joy...the self satisfaction at working and measuring your game/skills and the improvement you have made.

Ironically, they have produced nonconforming drivers (and other equipment) in the past, but it never seems to really take off in the hands of consumers? Why? Maybe distribution, marketing, etc...or maybe it's because there's something more than just playing the game to pass the time.

Again, I don't have a problem with it...do what you enjoy especially if you are new at the game and want to find enjoyment (instead of frustration many golfers have)...

Cheers!

Let's talk basketball, where you can play what the pros play

If you want to haul out a small trampoline and dunk the ball, why not?

no such thing as an "illegal" club... just non-conforming. If a driver adds 20 yards and a wedge lets you spin it like a pro, why not?

Are there trade offs? Sure; you could exercise or take lessons to add yards and enjoy the extra benefits; there might be a little guilt (I have never seen people who use non-conforming clubs also use non-conforming balls); but if you're not betting, you're not cheating.

I think when we start using the word "cheating", we need to be very careful what we're talking about here. Which of these is worse...

1) An 80 year old guy that hasn't had a handicap in 35 years and can only manage to play 9 holes improving his lie.

2) A low handicap that plays in tournaments picking up a 1 footer in his regular Saturday game (and turning in that card).

Wikipedia:
Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity.

Obviously I'm more okay with #1 than #2, but they are both cheating with respect to the rules of golf.

C'mon....who wouldn't love that laser-guided putter from caddyshack?

I agree that if you're playing for fun...no cap...no money....who cares.

Basketball was even more fun with an 8ft rim - I thought.
I could only hit a home run w/ an aluminum bat - that was fun.

Alright, has our society gotten that bad where moral relativism has gotten in to sports now?

"Hey, as long as it doesn't bother me it isn't cheating"

Guess what, the rules say it's cheating, it's cheating end of story.

Wow, some people will do anything to justify their less than ethical behavior, you can say that there isn't money on the line, or you're not playing against anyone, but it's still against the written rule, there is no interpreting this, it's black and white in the book.

So please, there is no justification, using non-conforming equipment is against the rules.

If you don't like it, try to get the rule changed, which will then create two divergent lines of equipment.

And two divergent handicap systems.

And two divergent tournament rules, etc...

I think you have it backward. I think most people acknowledge that it's cheating, but it just doesn't bother them.

So the quote should read, "Hey, it's cheating, but it just doesn't bother me."

One could make the argument that the rules are pretty arbitrary. The USGA is considered the authority for handicap and tournament purposes, as well it should be. They do a great job of that. But I think it pretty presumptuous to assume they those rules are so pervasive that they should dictate the way every weekend hacker plays that doesn't play in tournaments, keep a handicap, or perhaps even know what the USGA is.

I'm not sure I believe that, but I'd entertain the argument.

So when a pro carries a couple extra clubs in his bag for a practice round to test them he is cheating? Or when someone drops an extra ball to try a different approach shot they are cheating?

The rules aren't arbitrary, they are rules that have been decided on by both the USGA and R&A.

Each sport and game that is played has a set of rules in place to allow for the game to be played in a fair manner, just because our sport happens to be an anomaly with the fact that it can be played both competitively and recreationally, it doesn't change the fact that rules govern how that sport is to be played.

Improving your lie, using more than 14 clubs, and using non-conforming equipment are all the same, they are in violation of those rules and if a person plays the game according to their own rules it's no longer golf.

It's funny listening to this argument. I was at Bay Hill a few weeks ago and watched Arnie at the Saturday morning shootout. He was on a cart with TWO bags full of clubs playing. I'd love to see someone walk up to the King and call him a cheat.

No, it's not, they're practicing, that round has no effect on handicap since pros don't carry one, and it's not a competitive round.

And that's really not the point of this argument, you're trying to use one situation to justify another, when they are by no means related.

The pro is checking the condition of the course and figuring out which club to play in the tournament, he's not trying to get an unfair advantage.

Exactly. If you don't carry a handicap and don't play competitive rounds it doesn't matter. Use whatever clubs you want. The situations are completely related. Not being posted for a handicap and not a competitive round.

In the end, does it matter to anyone but me if I am on the course and improve my lie when playing recreationally? Nope. Not in the least. I am just out there having fun w/ no intention of posting the round anyway. Hell, half of the time, I don't even keep a scorecard.

When I was younger, we used to lower the hoop to 8 feet and play ball in the driveway. Goal tending, hard dunks, fouls...all fair game. It wasn't cheating, it was an agreed upon set of rules. I would still call it basketball. Same situation applies. If we decided to put in a local rule of rolling in the fairway, it isn't cheating. Our rules allow it. I won't post the round anyway, so why do I have to follow USGA rules?

I am sure you are going to tell me how wrong I am, but I don't really care. I can follow the official rules or I can make my own among friends. Either way, I don't really care what others think. I am still golfing.

Then, you're NOT playing golf, call it something else, like a fun walk on the golf course. If you don't care what score you shoot and don't care to follow the rules, why not pick up something easier to pass your time?
I could careless about what you do, just don't play in my group and don't hold up the course play and repair divots and ball marks as you should. You are free to do what you like if you feel you must justify for your reasoning, but you're not a golfer.

Was Stina right?

Wow, we aren't very judgemental, are we?

Bingo.

If you aren't playing by the rules, you aren't playing golf.

You know what, fine, there's no point in trying to explain that the game has rules, and has such should be followed if you're playing golf.

If you don't want to follow those rules, that's your choice, but as a poster said before, you're not playing golf.

I'll follow the rules and that's how I am, I still believe being honest and honor hold some value, it seems other believe otherwise and that's your choice.

First of all, I don't use illegal golf clubs and do follow the rules. I just expressed my opinion that whether someone else does doesn't matter to me if I'm not competing with them. Because I don't care what other guys do you made a number of completely wrong assumptions about me. I always repair my divot and 2 others on every green. I also encourage others to do the same. I play ready golf and don't hold up the course and let people play through. In the end whether you consider me a golfer or not really makes no difference to me, but I would recommend being more courteous when making assumptions about someone.

Relax, he wasn't speaking to you directly, he was using "you" meaning those who believe that it's ok to violate the rules of the game, lets not turn this into something personal

The bigger problem here is too many people think it's fine to just throw around their moral indignation and quickly brand so many others cheaters. This is really a pathetic thread and has no place on this site. The elitism is sickening.

If you want to pad your post count preaching, find another website.

I dont mind if ppl bump, improve their lie, give themselves gimmies.. (as long as no $$$ is involved )
People should enjoy the game, not risk injury or whatever.