1. People lining every fairway. (pretend as in they don't make you nervous lol)

2. Spotters who watch your ball on every hole and finds where it is and puts a flag by it.

3. A caddy.

4. Better equipment that was fitted to all your needs.

5. Add your ideas of what pros have that we don't.

How many strokes would it save you?

I think I could cut my 10 handicap to a 6.

And dont forget "PERFECT" conditions...

I would probably still stink, but it sure would be fun!

I've been thinking about starting a thread similiar this. . . but weighing the pro's and cons of playing the professional game. I've thought about it a lot, hitting a ball that barely rolls off the fairway, then when you get there it just. . .gone. I've been known to drop a ball and say "if tiger hit it here, he'd know where it was", and playing on with no penalty. I know its wrong, but I saw that freakin ball roll just off the fairway and now its somehow disappeared.

its wrong, I know.

There's a lot to a caddy. I think knowing exact yardages every time, not just the yardage but the "playing yardage" would be give me a few more GIR per round. Reading my putts would be a putt or 2 less per round. Don't forget being able to hit it on the roof of a building and getting a free drop either, lol. I suppose fans lining the fairway would be good, I could clunk someone off the noggin and back into the fairway.

I'm not sure if it just "seems" this way or it is but most of the time I see the pros hit an errant tee shot they still have a reasonably clear line at the green. Most of the courses I play, if you find it, a 20yd. chip with a 5iron is the only option out, sometimes backwards. Cripes, they probably know exactly how many trees are on some of the courses. Some of the ones I play it's like 17,000 vs. the 37 they contend with.

Anyway, tour caddy, I say 2-3 stokes maybe? Of course it would all be nullified with lightning fast greens, thickest rough I've ever seen and add 350yds. to the course.

you're forgetting that the greens run an 11 or 12 on the stimpmeter also.

Pin placement? Length of course? Pressure? Come on, maybe if you had a pro caddy following you around for your friendly weekend game you'd save some strokes, but you're nuts if you think you could play the U.S. Open ore any PGA tour event with complete custom equip etc and shoot with these guys.

I think you guys forget what real pressure can do to you. The greens, I play on are fast greens so that doesn't bother me. The fairways are a positive, so are spotters, a full-time coach and a caddy, but I think nearly all of that would be nullified by nerves - especially if you were leading.

Can you imagine those nerves? I get nervous when I go into the second or third round of the club champs when I'm in position to get on top. Imagine 3000 sets of eyes looking at you, plus all of the cameras and thousands of thousands more watching on tv. Imagine the ecstacy of hitting a great approach, making a good birdie or hitting a drive 300 down the middle. Then imagine that you have mishit an iron into the lake on the approach to 18 to wreck your round, or you hit into a tree line and end up making a double bogey.

Come on, we all say that we could handle the pressure, but week in, week out we see dozens of pros choke, stumble with the win in sight, miss putts they would never do on a normal saturday at their club.

The length and the rough would without question, raise your scores.

42 consistently

I agree whole heartedly!!! Yeah, if you all these advantages on your weekend round you might be able to shave 5 or 6 strokes. But another thing you have to remember is the courses these guys play on are not the same courses that we play on. Yeah you might be able to go and play Pinehurst or Pebble but the way the courses are manicured for tour events make it a totally different course. My home course has been home to a few Nationwide and LPGA events and in the weeks leading up to these events the course is totally different. We are talking fairways cut only half of what they are usually (15-20 yards wide where they would normally be 30-40), rough 4,5 or even 6 inches tall and greens like you have never played on before. And even some courses will put a different type sand in the bunkers. I was a scratch golfer before taking 3 years off from the game, and playing under those conditions would add 5-6 strokes to my game. So even if you had all these advantages, the course conditions would make up for it. What everyone has to remember with tour players, This is their livelihood. They hit hundreds if not thousands of balls a day when they are not on the course. They can tell you things about their swing, ball flight, and equipment that you have never even thought about in yourself. These guys are good. Don't discredit their game by saying you can do it if you had this, that or the other!!

a caddy that had yardages down dead would help a lot. Maybe a couple of shots a round.

Gallerys do not bother me, I like showing off.


Pressure is a state of mind. Trevino said something to the effect that pressure was a five foot down hill putt on the last hole for all a hundred bucks when you dont have a red cent in your pocket.

There are just a lot of things that can make me more nervous than a golf shot. Ever been shot at?

As far as good conditions go I always strike the ball better.

thats what I'm taking about right there. that game is not what we play. there are things that help, but plenty of things to hurt your score as well.

There are so many things wrong with this post. I don't like to get involved in this type of exchange but are you seriously trying to say being shot even involves pressure? Fear is the word you were searching for, and I don't think we were discussing fear. Although pressure may be a result of indirect fear of failure, it is in no way related to "being shot at" which leads me to ask if you yourself have been shot at. You sound very arrogant, were you an all-state athlete in any sport, because by the sound of your post you must have been some accomplished athlete. Thats the type of pressure i'm referring to, it can't be recreated, especially not with bullets heh.

Are you kidding I would be the leading money on tour and fightin Tiger for POY. Seriously, these guys play courses that are set up tough and still shoot zero. I would suspect anyone who is able to shoot low scores in these conditions already is.

I play to a 2 right now, and think I could easily play to scratch or a little bit better. It seems I'm always taking stupid penalty strokes for things that wouldn't happen with others watching. No to mention perfect greens. No more volcanoes! Equipment would help too, but it would be more of a confidence thing.

1. Played infront of crowds, I thrive on it. Easier for me than playing for a $ 20 press for some reason.
2. Caddy- PRICELESS. right yardage, extra eyes reading putts, and a calm voice to reassure you after that one bad shot.
3. Equipment? I already have it thanks to this site's BST and Joe Kwok. LOL

BUT, course setup on the tour is BRUTAL!!! I played Wente Vineyards Thursday before the Nationwide tournament week. The rough was up, fairways were 10-20yds narrower, ESPECIALLY where you would hit driver on long par 4's and 5's, and the greens at 12 on the stimp. at 7,400 yards??!!
You would need all of the first 3 plus all your talent and concentration, just to sniff your number after maybe 6 practice rounds.
1 bad drive= double, 2 back to back bad shots= triple. ( I shot 93 that day, didn't hit the ball that bad, but got my game ripped to shreds).
Just my opinion.

1 Would not bother me
2. that would help me immensely
3. would only help if I listened
4 got that
5. better condition greens is what I would add

I'd cut atleast 3-4 strokes off.

I don't think the original poster meant that your "average" single digit hcp. would all of a sudden be a card carrying PGA tour player, but there's some merit to what he said. The caddy alone helps immeasurably, especially if he knows you and your game well. Equipment will play a small role because most accomplished players can play with almost anything and it gets to a point where its more fine tuning and personal preference (feel, look, etc) rather than being results driven.

Regarding all of the talk of pressure and how that would nullify any benefits, that's true, it would be overwhelming at first. But, just like anything new and exciting, it would go away and most people that actually have some talent would find their comfort zone - this is true in any profession.

Think of it this way - you put the top graduate from Harvard Medical school in a remote rural clinic with relatively few supplies and outdated equipment, but less demanding circumstances (number of patients, etc.) and he may not feel like he's maximizing his potential (whether its true or not). Then, after a few years of treating colds and broken bones, he gets a call from the Mayo Clinic to head a large research project with some of the leading medical minds in the world and has a limitless budget and staff - but his every move is under severe scrutiny by the medical profession and public in general. At first, he may be a little overwhelmed, but once he gets his feet wet every day will be a little more "normal" than the one before it.

I have played a course that had just hosted a PGA event the week before. Still had grandstands and all. Its kinda nice knowing you can hit it anywhere remotely close to the green on some holes and be no more than 10 yds from the hole. I could dig the spotter deal. We have pretty deep rough and someone in the 4 some loses a ball a round easily. I think the benefits of having the gallery, spotters and such would be great playing on my home course in the conditions and length I play it. Having to trade our conditions for an increase by 750 yds, rough a foot deep, and greens rock hard and 12 on the stimp I would do worse. I have caddied on several tours, PGA as well, and I can tell you this with absolute certainty. The exorbant amount of information a caddie gives a pro would serve little purpose other than confuse 99% of amateurs. You have to be able to hit the shot that exact distance. I play at least 5 shots a round better playing to the middle of greens and not getting exact yardages to tucked pins. The room for error is so small. I would think I would be a few shots worse playing tour conditions with all of that added.

Forgot to add - probably the biggest reason for improvement would be the increased amount of practice time. If I could practice even once a week, I know I could play better. To think of the possibilities if I could practice or play whenever I wanted, WHEREVER I wanted...........

I hope DRG posts.

My question is...what would you shoot if:

1. You could not spit on the first tee because there were 300 people watching you? (oops forgot that would not be intimidating)
2. You are putting on greens that are 2-3 feet faster on the stimpmeter.
3. The rough is twice as high and thick as normal
4. The greens are harder (firmness) than you usually play.
5. You can actually play as good as a pro does.
6. The fairways are tighter by several yards over the norm.
7. You play your course for the absolute max that it can be played at.
8. Your short par 5 is now a par 4.
9 etc.

I could go on and on. Being someone that has played in a tour event, that extra stuff is great, but to think that you would shoot lower scores because there are a few more people there, you can find a ball that is just off the fairway, or because you have a caddy is a stretch. I actually think the pressure was super intense, and did not feel like myself at all. The greens were hard and super fast, and the rough was flat out nasty.

I would venture to guess that if you put the average golfer on a tour setup they would shoot 5-10 strokes worse per round. IMO

DG

^^Ahhh the guy who can speak from experience.

What about if you played under those conditions on a weekly basis? One time? Sure, most people would feel a little out of their league whether they have the talent to be there or not. That's why I chuckle at the one sponsor's exemption that is given to the Big Break winners. Its like taking a first round draft pick out of high school, telling him he's starting in the majors next week, and he has to get through 6 innings to stay on the team. Of course, he's got the talent or else they wouldn't have taken him #1, but it takes a little getting used to.

I'm with raidernut1234. I've played a number of courses just before and immediately after tour events. The course setup alone cost me between 5 and 10 strokes. There's no way the occassionally vanishing ball, hoof prints in the trap, gur, etc. is going to come close to that. It's the same in bowling. You see those guys winning tournaments on TV rolling low 200s and say "I do that every Tuesday night"... not on those lanes you don't. Then add the pressures of competition and the fact that you're playing for your dinner.

[edit] haha, DRGJR72 posted while I was replying. I am your average golfer and the 5 - 10 added strokes guess was actual numbers in my case. Just in the second cut and my only rational option was a pitching wedge back to the fairway. If you missed a short to medium downhill putt the come back was always going to be a lot longer. Just the pressure of knowing that resulted in a number of missed putts. I was stunned the first couple of times. The subsequent occassions I knew what to expect and played ultra conservatively -- anything to avoid missing the fairway, anything to be below the hole... didn't make a difference, same result.

Umm, yes, being shot at, mortared, and rocketed does add pressure. Especially when you are in the middle of a job that needs to get done so the shooting, mortars, and rockets can stop. Pressure is nothing more than getting over a fear to get what needs done to get done. I've done this crap, more times than I wish in the last few years, but what scares me more, is when I go back to the US and I have to drive to the grocery store and everyone is driving faster than 35 miles an hour.

I can say I am glad it's done and over with and my new career does not involve any kind of military gear, guns, weapons, knives, or people that want me dead. I can play a lot of golf and give myself pressure in improving myself for me, myself, and I. My biggest fear right now is not improving. If I don't improve I give myself pressure. That's how golf is supposed to be. And that's how I want to keep it.

I don't think its like pulling a kid out of high school and throwing him into the MLB. Its like taking a kid out of college, putting him into the farm system, then pulling him up if he can perform at that level. I'm not sure, but I'm sure there are quite a few PGA tour guys who do well on the Nationwide tour, or make it through Q school that just can't cut it on the PGA tour. But to address the OP, if you had a great caddy and custom built clubs etc (aside from it being odd) for your weekend game, you would most likely perform SLIGHTLY better on average.

I agree with you that if you could do it on a regular basis it would become second nature. Just like most touring pros, athletes and the like. After they get used to the speed of the game, and the change from one level to the next, they adapt and get better (at least the successful ones do). So I think that golf would be the same. I faced the same in golf and in hockey, so I can totally understand your point.

My only problem with the original post is that it appeared to me (and maybe I am wrong) that they were assuming under those conditions they would automatically get better, because there was a crowd, a caddy, perfect conditions, etc. My response was a fact based response as I was there, and experienced it and I did not play as well as I normally did, because of the added pressure. I know that most amateur players that I have played with, 8 out of ten times fold under the pressure, and 2 time out of ten excel under it.

But to say that because you had a caddy, some guy to find your nug, and people lining the fairways (assuming that you just hit it barely off of line) to help your ball from going into the cookout in the backyard, would make you x amount of strokes better. Yeah that could help, but once you factor in all of the other things, your score is going to skyrocket. Just look at most club championship scores, etc. They tend to skyrocket, is that pressure, the conditions, counting all your strokes, or a combination of all of those and more.

I would like to see an average golfer play a tour event, under tour conditions for 4 rounds with all of the original posters added aides and see if the scores actually dropped or if they would get worse. I would be willing to bet they would get worse, way worse.

IMO

DG

I kind of assumed the OP was not referring to actual tour event conditions but only the physical conditions. Fore caddys, human bumpers, perfect sand, true greens, etc. Same answer. been there done that. You were spot on from my experiences. 5 to 10 strokes (more towards the 10 number). If I had the opportunity to play 4 rounds in an actual event I would be so there on the first round for my life changing opportunity. Then I expect I would disappear and change my name.

Thread Jack for a GREAT reason... JDorfler, On behalf of my family of four, THANK YOU for your service to our country. If your ever in Nor Cal, PM me and we'll go golfing.

now, back to this fruitless debate.

I second that......

Spectators.....yeah ok the crowd and whatnot may help the errant shots occasionally but to be honest, most amateurs and me too, miss way off line from the fairway crowd, although you would most likely not loose a drive or whatnot, or a less likely chance of loosing it.

The caddy?? That is negligible. If you can utilize that info and actually hit it where he tells you to, then yeah that might help. If you can't, then it is no different than having a driver in limo with no map.

The "perfect" conditions, unless most people understand or appreciate thick nasty rough, fast hard greens, etc. I don't think they know what the conditions are like, and they could actually be a hindrance to their supposed improved performance.

I think it would great for tv....set up a course under tour like conditions, make it like 7300 yards, rough up, greens slick and fast, and give them all of the OP's original ideas. Play four rounds or whatnot, post their handicaps, average score, etc. Then have 100 amateurs tee it up, and see if they were better or worse than normal. I would be willing to bet they would be way worse. At least from my experience.

Side note: I did not change my name after my less than normal performance under those conditions. I just became more humbled and realized how good the guys are that tee it up on tv really are.

DG

I am sorry you take me as arrogant. No I was never and all state athlete. All though I have had success had many levels on a golf course.

I just don't buy golf as being that pressure packed in comparison to other things.

I hate it when they say it took a lot of guts to make that putt or that shot. ? It takes no courage to make a three foot putt.

I said pressure was being shot at not shot, and yes I have been. Worrying if the next bullet is going to hit you now that is pressure.

There is just so many things that are more pressure than hitting a golf ball. I am passionate for the game of golf but its not life and death.

can i have butch harmon coach me as well???
(no thanks mr. leadbetter...)

I've had the chance to play several courses immediately after a tour event (in fact, if its possible to do, I make it a point to try - its kinda cool to play holes I've just finished watching the pros play on tv). Sometimes even with a caddy. I agree with the 5-10 strokes a couple of people have mentioned (and its usually turned out to be closer to the 10 than the 5).

Fast greens I actually quite like - I putt better (though I will add that the pin placements are often much more difficult than many of the courses would commonly use for their members). The thing that really does me in is how punished one gets for errant shots. The length of the courses mean you pretty much have to swing at 100% on every drive, which means accuracy goes down. Having a caddy to give precise distances (and a dozen other variables) is kinda meaningless when the ball is 170 out and sitting down in 6 inches of thick grass. My strategy is not about making sure I get the ball on some upper plateau of the green, and using a slight hill on the left side to roll the ball towards the hole (which is the sort of information a good caddy would give me) ... its about making sure it just gets back to the bloody fairway, and at least halfway to the hole ... .

The courses are longer - but this is (at least slightly) mitigated by fairways that deliver more roll. Problem is, that roll doesn't always help. I was personally struck by how often I hit a fairway, with a drive that on my usual courses would have stopped on the fairway, but on the pro course setup rolled off into at least the first cut.

It is (to me) quite a buzz to par a hole I've watched Tiger par. And now and then I've gone three or four holes straight with pars, or even an occasional birdie. Its just that this will be followed by two straight triples.

In my experience, this is actually the real difference between the pros playing pro courses, and the rest of us playing our usual courses. I think a decent, single-handicap amateur can par a good number of holes on a pro course setup ... when good irons are hit on the par threes, and the drives go straight on par fours and fives. Any decent golfer does have a number of holes a round in which they hit the ball well. The difference with the pro setup (IMO) is that errant shots, that on ordinary courses turn into bogeys - or even par saves - on pro course setups easily turn into doubles and triples before you even know what hit you.

I do, personally recommend the experience, however, to anyone that has an opportunity to do it. I've never shot very well (it is usually quite frustrating) ... but I always come away with a great appreciation for how good those guys really are. The golf I watch on TV is much more exciting.

Wouldn't help me. Their course yardages are too long. The only thing I do like are fast greens that roll true.

I must have been misunderstood. To those of you who served our Country I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have made sacrifices that the majority of Americans couldn't dream of making. However, when Krunk referenced being shot at, I was picturing in a civilian setting not military. Bottom line is playing on the PGA tour, with all of the benefits and challenges that are inherent with such a task, IMO you wouldn't play to your handicap.

I think I would cut 2 shots per 18 off my score and here is why.

Although I play at "Country Club", the conditions are average at best most days.

- Poa Greens that rin slow and bounce like crazy
- Fairways where the ball always seems to sit a half a groove down
- Fairways that are over watered and on most drives you have mud on your ball
- The rough around the greens is a mixture of many grasses and bare spots, some of which have topsoil down and seed in them yet never marked as goiund under repair
- Almost every fairway has trees on both sides of the fairway, and usually lose one ball per round in amongst the pine needles, sticks and leaf cover. (A PGA Spotter would help for sure)
- And sand Traps that are rarely raked properly by the guy who was in it before you

A combination of all the above usually costs me 2 shots and 18 or more, no wonder I play better on the road than I do at home.

"where the hell is the beer cart out here?"
"what is taking these guys so long in front of us, enough already?"
But, the talent in the gallery is always nice to look at.

Very true, I played a couple of tour prepped courses either in Q school or a few days after a major and they are setup very difficult. You can easily shoot 10 - 15 over your normal score. I have seen plenty of great amateurs shoot 85 - 90 on the first day of Q school on difficult courses. If you have a low handicap try to do a monday qualifier on a course then if you make it have a go at a tour prepped course and then post back what you think.

I think this may be a situation where we are talking apples and oranges. I took the question to be what would I shoot on my home course under better conditions.

I have no doubts I would have a very hard time playing to my handicap under PGA Golf Tourney conditions on the courses they play at the length that they play.

Also taking into consideration I do compete in lacal run Golf Association of Philadephia Tourneys, and ararely play to my handicap in them due to set up.

Also keeping in mind ones handicap is based on potential rather than true average scoring, I do not always expect to play to my handicap nder those conditions.

I haven't played too many PGA courses when they're "tournament ready," but I'm sure that the immaculate conditions would help shave a few strokes off my round. The caddy would also help, but the gallery and pressure would probably negate a caddy.

I would say it is a very INTERESTING question - do I smell a reality show in the making?

I would watch it!!!!!!!!

I think I could save a few strokes, but the pressure of that many people watching me wouldn't help any and the thought of hitting a few of them wouldn't either, but the help on finding wayward balls would be nice.

One thing we have to take into consideration is the tees would be backed up, the rough would be taller, and the greens would be faster. So with that being said I guess in all truthfullness I would probably play just like I do or worse.

Actually - that would make a great show. I do hear people on public courses occasionally complaining about greens, or the fairways being in bad shape, etc., etc., and opining that if they could play on pro setup, they'd shoot better. It would seem - on the surface - as though there would be some pluses, and some minuses ... and that they might balance each other out (at least to some degree).

I've never, however, met an amateur that actually has played a pro setup come back feeling anything other than ... thoroughly humbled (myself definately included).

It would be a real kick to see a reality show based on that concept. Take a group of decent amateurs ... and once every couple of weeks, have them play a course on the Monday after a tour event, from the pro tee boxes - before the course cuts the rough, widens the fairways, and lets the greens slow down. (I personally think that would be every bit as entertaining as the Big Break kind of shows ... perhaps even more entertaining).

I second that reality show concept, that would really get people to appreciate how good the pros are.

Yes but my DREAM is to hit a nice approach shot or a getting it close on a nice par 3 and the crowd just going NUTS.

Often I will think about this when hitting my approaches.

JC

wow..posted this last night and its 1 something now...but yea this was more for your home course..type thing ...not like playing on the pga tour ..hint on why i said croweds wouldn't make you nervous...


so since you wanna bring up the pga tour in this arguement...lets take all this stuff from the pga tour players ...do they shoot worst? YES ! ...so what i'm saying is that all these things certainly would help at "your lvl" not just putting someone into a pga tour setting and helping them..

but if i ever have a shot to play a pga tour venue before or after the tournament was held within a week i would take it ..but it takes some connections to do that..which i dont have....but yes i would probably shoot higher but it would be fun