so i went to walk 9 today, and it was by far the greatest 9 yet.
on the par four 7th hole, a miracle occurred. the first half of the 7th fairway is uphill, then the second half is downhill leading to a mid-sized green.
i didn't quite get my drive as far as i would've liked to (i bet everyone could agree that that statement could be applied to every shot one hits :P ), leaving my ball off the fairway to the right and still on the uphill section of the hole. i then proceeded to hit my 5 iron. my first shot looked like it went too far, so i dropped a second and hit it slightly softer. as i was lining up my putt (doing a complete 360 around the ball and cup), i noticed MY FIRST BALL IN THE CUP!!! but i wasn't (and still not) sure if it would count seems how i did hit a second ball, so i went ahead and putted out just in case i was wrong.
was it an eagle 2 or something else?
please help!
Full Version: I need a ruling
GolfWRX.com > Golf Swings, Styles, Travel, Leisure > Swing/Fitness/Beginners > Rules of Golf and Etiquette
It was an Eagle. You were done playing the hole when the 2nd shot went in. Anything after that is meaningless.
thank you!
in that case, that means that i shot a 41 overall.
remind me to kiss my 5 iron the next time i play
in that case, that means that i shot a 41 overall.
remind me to kiss my 5 iron the next time i play
Isn't the first ball considered out of play when he plays a second ball. He didn't declare his second a provisional. He just said he thought "it went too far". I don't know much about the rules...but that doesn't sound right, even if the ball was in the hole.
Post above is correct of course, you had an eagle two the second the ball went in the cup, anything after that is meaningless. Congratulations on that!
However, not to be a rules nazi or anything, but when you played the second ball, whether you were with playing partners or by yourself, it might be useful to declare or at least think to yourself if you are solo, "provisional in case the first ball is out of bounds or lost". When you said "the first ball seemed like it went too far" just seemed a little vague. Just something to think about if and when you get into a real competition. This will keep you out of trouble or disputes.
However, not to be a rules nazi or anything, but when you played the second ball, whether you were with playing partners or by yourself, it might be useful to declare or at least think to yourself if you are solo, "provisional in case the first ball is out of bounds or lost". When you said "the first ball seemed like it went too far" just seemed a little vague. Just something to think about if and when you get into a real competition. This will keep you out of trouble or disputes.
Yup Eagle.
Once the ball is in the cup...hole is deemed finished.
Once the ball is in the cup...hole is deemed finished.
akancl:
when the first ball went in the hole, the hole was over and he had a two. however, consider a more likely scenario.....if the first ball had ended up say an inch or even a foot from the hole, since he did not declare anything, when he hit the second ball, the second ball was automatically in play. at that point, he would have been playing 4 from the green and the first ball would need to be picked up and put in his pocket, no matter how close it was to the hole. So the difference would be doing a short putt for birdie versus a long bogie putt. this is the benefit of making your intentions clear and following the rules. very lucky for him that the first ball went in. otherwise, the best he could have done would be 5 and more than likely, a double bogie assuming a two putt with the second ball.
when the first ball went in the hole, the hole was over and he had a two. however, consider a more likely scenario.....if the first ball had ended up say an inch or even a foot from the hole, since he did not declare anything, when he hit the second ball, the second ball was automatically in play. at that point, he would have been playing 4 from the green and the first ball would need to be picked up and put in his pocket, no matter how close it was to the hole. So the difference would be doing a short putt for birdie versus a long bogie putt. this is the benefit of making your intentions clear and following the rules. very lucky for him that the first ball went in. otherwise, the best he could have done would be 5 and more than likely, a double bogie assuming a two putt with the second ball.
I do not claim to be a rules expert, but there is a reason the rules say he has to declare a provisional ball. I believe if he did not then the first ball is deemed lost or out of bounds.
Somebody that knows quote the right rules on this one.
Ken
Somebody that knows quote the right rules on this one.
Ken
Rule 1-1. Go to a variety of websites including the USGA site. They give all kinds of Q and A scenarios where a player does all kinds of dumb things AFTER he holes his original ball. Once the original ball is holed, nothing else matters.
alright, thanks.
sorry, i should have mentioned that it was a provisional in my post. i did declare it (in my head. does one really have to say it out loud when he is playing by himself?) though.
i'm not a TOTAL n00b.
sorry, i should have mentioned that it was a provisional in my post. i did declare it (in my head. does one really have to say it out loud when he is playing by himself?) though.
i'm not a TOTAL n00b.
QUOTE(atlanta golfer @ Oct 15 2007, 09:29 PM) 
Rule 1-1. Go to a variety of websites including the USGA site. They give all kinds of Q and A scenarios where a player does all kinds of dumb things AFTER he holes his original ball. Once the original ball is holed, nothing else matters.
If this is correct what is the point of the rule that says you have to declare to hit a provisional ball?
I do not get it.
Ken,
Play particular attention to 27-2 C. The provisional ball may be abandoned if the original is neither lost nor out of bounds. If the ball is in the cup, it is neither of those and the hole is finished. Even if the ball wasn't declared as provisional (which in other circumstances would automatically make it the ball in play regardless) it doesn't matter because the hole is complete once the ball goes in the cup. The point of the provisional ball is simply to save time.
Play particular attention to 27-2 C. The provisional ball may be abandoned if the original is neither lost nor out of bounds. If the ball is in the cup, it is neither of those and the hole is finished. Even if the ball wasn't declared as provisional (which in other circumstances would automatically make it the ball in play regardless) it doesn't matter because the hole is complete once the ball goes in the cup. The point of the provisional ball is simply to save time.
QUOTE
Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
QUOTE
27-2 Provisional Ball
a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partnergoes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.
(Order of play from teeing ground — see Rule 10-3.)
Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ballbears to the original.
b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in a water hazard,the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.
Exception: If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c) the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.
c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15 apply.
Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokesincurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partnergoes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.
(Order of play from teeing ground — see Rule 10-3.)
Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ballbears to the original.
b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in a water hazard,the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.
Exception: If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c) the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.
c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15 apply.
Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokesincurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
1-1 General
The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.
Decisions
1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.
Decisions
1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
If he had not declared it as a provisional and hit another ball, would he incur a two stroke penalty for practicing on the course? The hole was over, he hit a ball between holes?
mouth:
if he did not declare a provisional (which it turns out he did), then I think yes, he is practicing on the course, which is only permitted after play of a hole and only on or near the putting green or the next tee. In a competition, this would be a problem.
I hate to invoke the rules selectively, but the real truth is that many of us, when playing solo on occasion, will take advantage of the opportunity to hit a few extra balls during play, to test new clubs and shots and experiment with distance. We still keep a strict score for the "real" ball in play and will post this score against our handicap. In retrospect, this is a violation of the rules. I think at some point though, common sense, having fun, and being practical needs to take over.
if he did not declare a provisional (which it turns out he did), then I think yes, he is practicing on the course, which is only permitted after play of a hole and only on or near the putting green or the next tee. In a competition, this would be a problem.
I hate to invoke the rules selectively, but the real truth is that many of us, when playing solo on occasion, will take advantage of the opportunity to hit a few extra balls during play, to test new clubs and shots and experiment with distance. We still keep a strict score for the "real" ball in play and will post this score against our handicap. In retrospect, this is a violation of the rules. I think at some point though, common sense, having fun, and being practical needs to take over.
That's wat I was thinking, Mr. Mouth. Even though you said it was a provisional, Adam, if you hadn't I do believe it would have been considered practicing on the course. The only time you can practice between holes is in Matchplay, i believe.
Quick check: I know you cannot practice putting on a green during a normal round, but are you allowed to practice other shots not on the green? ie: you are waiting on the next tee and are chipping the ball to the tee blocks, is that deemed practice on the course and hence a two shot penalty on the hole you are about to play? it's a pretty weird question, but I just want to know in case I have a serious match that I'm playing and have such a scenario take place. I wouldn't do it in a normal round as I think that's a little analy retentive, but I'm thinking more tourney level
Quick check: I know you cannot practice putting on a green during a normal round, but are you allowed to practice other shots not on the green? ie: you are waiting on the next tee and are chipping the ball to the tee blocks, is that deemed practice on the course and hence a two shot penalty on the hole you are about to play? it's a pretty weird question, but I just want to know in case I have a serious match that I'm playing and have such a scenario take place. I wouldn't do it in a normal round as I think that's a little analy retentive, but I'm thinking more tourney level
I have not been a rules expert for 20 years it takes a lot to keep up.
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
Shaitan:
If you go to the USGA site they have the rules and also Q and A and Decisions based on the rules. You CAN practice on the green, around the green, and on the next tee, in stroke play, after the ball is holed. I'm not sure you'd want to do this, except perhaps to get an improved read on green speed, in the early going. This UGSA site is incredibly helpful to answer all the types of very detailed questions that are coming up here.
If you go to the USGA site they have the rules and also Q and A and Decisions based on the rules. You CAN practice on the green, around the green, and on the next tee, in stroke play, after the ball is holed. I'm not sure you'd want to do this, except perhaps to get an improved read on green speed, in the early going. This UGSA site is incredibly helpful to answer all the types of very detailed questions that are coming up here.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
Yes, the 2nd ball is now the ball in play.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
Why? If you hit a ball out of bounds, the hole isn't over. If you hit a ball into the cup, the hole is over. It's pretty much the most fundamental rule of golf (rule 1-1).
QUOTE(TexasAg @ Oct 16 2007, 10:19 AM)
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
Yes, the 2nd ball is now the ball in play.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
Why? If you hit a ball out of bounds, the hole isn't over. If you hit a ball into the cup, the hole is over. It's pretty much the most fundamental rule of golf (rule 1-1).
Lets simplify this. You hit a ball in the woods, you think it may be out of bounds. You hit another ball without declaring that it is a provisional. As it turns out the first ball is in play. Which ball is in play for you?
The second one.
Good Lord you learn something new every day. Practicing putting or chipping in between holes during strokeplay is allowed both by the USGA and RA (this must be a change).....rule 7.2 in both rulebooks. Thank you ATL golfer.
I really must make an effort to keep up with the rule changes.
I really must make an effort to keep up with the rule changes.
As far as I know, practicing between holes in strokeplay has been allowed for years. The only stipulation is it must not unduly delay play.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 11:55 AM)
QUOTE(TexasAg @ Oct 16 2007, 10:19 AM)
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
Yes, the 2nd ball is now the ball in play.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
Why? If you hit a ball out of bounds, the hole isn't over. If you hit a ball into the cup, the hole is over. It's pretty much the most fundamental rule of golf (rule 1-1).
Lets simplify this. You hit a ball in the woods, you think it may be out of bounds. You hit another ball without declaring that it is a provisional. As it turns out the first ball is in play. Which ball is in play for you?
The answer is the same as the first time you asked this. The second ball is now in play.
QUOTE(TexasAg @ Oct 16 2007, 12:13 PM)
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 11:55 AM)
QUOTE(TexasAg @ Oct 16 2007, 10:19 AM)
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
If you hit a ball that may be out of bounds. Then tee another ball with out declaring it a provisional. Have you not abandoned the original ball.
Yes, the 2nd ball is now the ball in play.
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:38 AM)
(if this is right the decision the USGA made is stupid about the hole being over when the ball is holed)
Why? If you hit a ball out of bounds, the hole isn't over. If you hit a ball into the cup, the hole is over. It's pretty much the most fundamental rule of golf (rule 1-1).
Lets simplify this. You hit a ball in the woods, you think it may be out of bounds. You hit another ball without declaring that it is a provisional. As it turns out the first ball is in play. Which ball is in play for you?
The answer is the same as the first time you asked this. The second ball is now in play.
Then how can his first ball be deemed holed if he did not declare a provisitionial.
Thats the part of the rule that seems stupid
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 12:27 PM)
Then how can his first ball be deemed holed if he did not declare a provisitionial.
Thats the part of the rule that seems stupid
Thats the part of the rule that seems stupid
The answer is still the same. The hole is finished once the ball goes in the cup. See rule 1-1.
Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate". 
No matter what, once the ball is holed...the hole is done.
A guy could hit 12 OB, 15putt once he get to the green, and when he finds his first in the hole, his first is the one that counts.
A better example would be if you tee up a ball, nudge it with your club and it falls off, or if you waggle and accidently hit the ball, etc...
You just re-tee with no penalty since the ball is deemed not in play yet.
However once the ball is in play, and you hit the ball with a waggle, or accidently make contact without intent to hit it, you must replace the ball WITH penalty.
A guy could hit 12 OB, 15putt once he get to the green, and when he finds his first in the hole, his first is the one that counts.
A better example would be if you tee up a ball, nudge it with your club and it falls off, or if you waggle and accidently hit the ball, etc...
You just re-tee with no penalty since the ball is deemed not in play yet.
However once the ball is in play, and you hit the ball with a waggle, or accidently make contact without intent to hit it, you must replace the ball WITH penalty.
So it seems like it's a mix of the two rules being discussed here. Knowingly, or even unknowingly, when the ball goes in the hole, then the hole is finished. Because the hole is deemed finished, then your second shot (deemed provisional or not) is just a 'practice' shot because you are now between holes. 
I need
.
I need
.
QUOTE(jcjr34 @ Oct 16 2007, 01:21 PM)
So it seems like it's a mix of the two rules being discussed here. Knowingly, or even unknowingly, when the ball goes in the hole, then the hole is finished. Because the hole is deemed finished, then your second shot (deemed provisional or not) is just a 'practice' shot because you are now between holes.
I know what you're saying here... But I would have to imagine that there's some ruling covering what is considered "practice," and that hitting a provisional ball (only to find that that ball didn't need to be played because the first was holed) does NOT constitute practice.
But who knows. LOL
/< / /2 /<
Well my problem was and is I always thought that if you hit a second ball and did not declare it a provisional then that ball was in play.
I understand the rule as it is I just think its stupid.
Note I think a lot of the rules of golf make little sense.
I understand the rule as it is I just think its stupid.
Note I think a lot of the rules of golf make little sense.
QUOTE(atlanta golfer @ Oct 16 2007, 10:02 AM)
Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate".
wasnt that line stolen from Cool Hand Luke?
i digress...lol
QUOTE(atlanta golfer @ Oct 16 2007, 10:02 AM)
Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate".
Reminded me more of an Abbott and Costello routine.
Costello: Well then who's in the hole?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy with the ball in the hole.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy that just scored an eagle.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy in the hole in two...
Abbott: Who is in the hole!
Costello: I'm asking you who's in the hole.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes. PAUSE
[…]
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guys name that just got an eagle.
Abbott: No. What is out of bounds.
Costello: I'm not asking you who's out of bounds.
Abbott: Who's in the hole.
Costello: One ball at a time!
Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.
Costello: I'm not changing nobody!
Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.
Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy in the hole with an eagle?
Abbott: That's right.
[...]
I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.
QUOTE(Charlie_Foxtrot @ Oct 16 2007, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE(atlanta golfer @ Oct 16 2007, 10:02 AM)
Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate".
Reminded me more of an Abbott and Costello routine.
Costello: Well then who's in the hole?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy with the ball in the hole.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy that just scored an eagle.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy in the hole in two...
Abbott: Who is in the hole!
Costello: I'm asking you who's in the hole.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes. PAUSE
[…]
Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guys name that just got an eagle.
Abbott: No. What is out of bounds.
Costello: I'm not asking you who's out of bounds.
Abbott: Who's in the hole.
Costello: One ball at a time!
Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.
Costello: I'm not changing nobody!
Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.
Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy in the hole with an eagle?
Abbott: That's right.
[...]
The USGA rule book reminds me of Abbott and Costello or for the kids on the forum Dumb and Dummer
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 16 2007, 04:07 PM)
The USGA rule book reminds me of Abbott and Costello . . .
Abbott and Costello were funny and interesting.
The USGA rule book reads like the tax code.
QUOTE(jimb @ Oct 16 2007, 05:58 PM)
I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.
WRONG.From decisions on the rules of golf:
QUOTE
1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball
Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball
Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball
Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball
Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.
This is getting a little silly, but jimb, you are mistaken. I don't know how we can say this any more clearly. Once the ball is in the hole, that is it, the score is two and the player is done. Nothing else matters in terms of his score on that hole.
We can talk all kinds of situations relating to provisionals and practice on the course, etc. The practice questions, depending on the situation, might result in some additional penalty strokes which would be added to his score.
But the main point here that does not change is, when the ball is in the hole, the hole is finished. No matter what.
If you don't believe this, you can go to the USGA website and read not just the rules but the Q and A and the Decisions. It is pretty cut and dry.
We can talk all kinds of situations relating to provisionals and practice on the course, etc. The practice questions, depending on the situation, might result in some additional penalty strokes which would be added to his score.
But the main point here that does not change is, when the ball is in the hole, the hole is finished. No matter what.
If you don't believe this, you can go to the USGA website and read not just the rules but the Q and A and the Decisions. It is pretty cut and dry.
QUOTE(atlanta golfer @ Oct 16 2007, 04:27 PM)
. . . I don't know . . .
He's on third.
How many times do I have to tell you, Who's on third!
QUOTE(TexasAg @ Oct 16 2007, 07:24 PM)
QUOTE(jimb @ Oct 16 2007, 05:58 PM)
I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.
WRONG.From decisions on the rules of golf:
QUOTE
1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball
Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball
Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.
Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.
1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball
Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?
A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).
1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball
Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.
Well, I have been wrong before. What makes me feel good is that I don't do this for a living. I constantly see pro's on TV asking for ruling. But if that is from the decisions on the rules of golf, then yep I am wrong.
I was reading in Golf or Golf Digest one of those golf rule quizzes, and a case just like this came up and the answer was as I described. Prior to that reading I would have thought that the ball in the hole ended the hole. Looks like the ruling guy is all wet.
The decision on the rules do get quite goofy. We had a situation in a local tournament where a guy hits his tee shot above the hole on a steeply sloped par 3. His ball is at rest. He marks it. When it is his turn he replaces the ball and lifts his mark. He starts to move to look at the line and the ball moves by itself and goes in the hole. The decision was a hole in one.
If you asked 10 average guys about that you would get different 2 or 3 different opinions on how to procedure. Someone on this question referred to Abbott and Costello. Not too far off.
Check this out.
Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.
Have you broken a rule?
According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.
Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.
Have you broken a rule?
According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.
As daft as it may seem, yes you have....
I hate to say it but I've taken two shots to get out of bunkers many a time. However, it never occurred to me to rake one area of the bunker before moving to the next. Actually, I'm not even sure it's good practice to bring the rake in with you. Isn't this normally left outside the bunker until you are done? At least, that is my usual practice.
I thought if you rake the bunker while your ball is still in it, it would be considered testing the ground condition no?
I know you CAN take a rake in with you, and drop it off to the side, but I wouldn't in tournament to alleviate any potential problems.
I know you CAN take a rake in with you, and drop it off to the side, but I wouldn't in tournament to alleviate any potential problems.
QUOTE(hbear @ Oct 18 2007, 12:57 AM)
I thought if you rake the bunker while your ball is still in it, it would be considered testing the ground condition no?
No, check out rule 13-4:
CODE
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Also, taking a rake with you into the bunker is perfectly legal:
CODE
Q. May a player place an umbrella or a rake in a bunker before playing a stroke from the bunker?
A. Placing an umbrella or rake in a hazard is equivalent to placing clubs in the hazard — see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4. There is no penalty, providing nothing is done which may constitute testing the soil or improving the lie of the ball. But see Decision 13-4/22.
A. Placing an umbrella or rake in a hazard is equivalent to placing clubs in the hazard — see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4. There is no penalty, providing nothing is done which may constitute testing the soil or improving the lie of the ball. But see Decision 13-4/22.
greetings
michi
QUOTE(kenk7us2002 @ Oct 17 2007, 07:22 AM)
Check this out.
Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.
Have you broken a rule?
According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.
Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.
Have you broken a rule?
According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.
Interesting.. Why would that be a penalty for improving our lie?
See the post above:
QUOTE
No, check out rule 13-4:
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Rules aside, to me the bigger question on bringing rakes into the bunker, raking the bunker from the first shot before playing a second shot still in the same bunker .................the bigger question is, why would you want to?
Yes the "assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole" part of the rule is the grey area...as when one is raking/smoothing the bunker, they can be construed as to getting a read on the sand.
Like I said, I wouldn't do it in competition just to aviod the potential problems.
Like I said, I wouldn't do it in competition just to aviod the potential problems.
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