I am currently a short hitter. I play from the mids normally, and every once in a while I play from the forward tees (it's nice to hit an iron into the green and not a fairway wood or hybrid), and it is like hitting a 260 yard tee shot as opposed to my usual 200 to 210..

In any case my HI is 8.5 thanks to a decent short game, which I practice a lot to make up for lack of long game.

However, if I played, for example, from 6800 yards I'd be fortunate to shoot a 90. I usually shoot in the low 80s from the mid tees and low 70s from the forward tees.

How valid is an HI if I couldn't come close to my index if I played from the tips? That's why I don't play in tournaments. The tees played from are just to far for me.

Until I can start playing from further back, I don't feel like a single digit handicapper. Yes, I have a decent short game and hit lots of fairway, but the ball just doesn't go very far.

Thanks for your input.

You need to use the course index for the course/tees that you would play. This adjusts your handicap index to reflect the difference between the slope where your handicap is based and the slope that you would be playing. To my knowledge, this is what you need to do and how it works.

Here is a link to the usga calculator... http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/calc..._calculator.asp

The course ratings under the USGA handicap system is designed to properly compensate you for playing the distance associated with the different sets of tees. The slope is designed to compensate you for overall difficulty.

If you are scoring ten or more strokes between different sets of tees as you report, then for some reason, you are much more severely hurt by distance than the average golfer. Most course ratings will only give you a few more strokes for playing different sets of tees.

If you don't have any type of serious physical limitation then you may want to take a few lessons or look at different equipment to find out why the longer distances are hurting your game so much. This type of big difference in scoring is not typical.

Maybe this is just a matter of devoting more attention and practice time to the mid irons and hybrids, versus the short irons and wedges. Not to mention the driver!

Personally, I hit the ball only an average distance, for example, about 240-250 total carry plus roll with the driver. I can play the whites or blues or tips, and my scores change by about 2-3 strokes per tee increment, which is consistent with the typical course ratings. This might be, for example, 5900 yards for white, 6300 for blue, and 6700 for tips. Obviously, some courses are shorter and tighter, and some are longer and more wide open. I read today that the average golfer prefers to play about 6200 yards.

If your game fits a certain style of play such as accurate and short, you may also try to play courses that fit that style. otoh your playing partners or competitors may have different ideas!

Thanks! I get that, but the disparity among the tees is what bothers me.

Exactly. The forward tees I play from is my home course, which is very demanding of accuracy. The forward tees have a slope of 120. Some course from the blues are less than that. I played from the forwards yesterday and shot a 70. From the mids I shot an 81. There are a few par 4s I have to lay up on because my distance won't allow me to carry the hazards on my approaches. On one hole I hit driver, wedge, 7-iron. It's frustrating.

I am going to work on my long game in the off season. I devote 85% of my practice time to the short game. At my home course we have a short course. The longest hole is 103 yards, the average is about 75. I generally shoot 1 or 2-under on that course. Been as low as 4-under and as high as 1-over.

When you say "only 240 to 250" I would love to have that "only". :-)

I feel most courses don't have a lot of disparity between tees...especially when moving back.

A friend of mine is a solid 4 from blue tees (6700 yards) and hits the ball decently...however he is only given 3 more strokes when we move back to 7300 yards, which he doesn't even come close to playing to. The extra 20-30 to so yards on the tee shot effects things significantly...

Even worse for a 12 handicap that onlt hits the ball 220-230 off the tee. It's decent, but when par 4s are 460 yards...he isn't reaching them....when a par 3 is 248...he isn't reaching that with driver.

Or if I take my index...0.8 and move up a couple of boxes, I no longer get the stroke I would get from the tips (7300), and play to scratch....
To me the difference from the whites (6000 yards) to the tips (7300) yards is more than a stroke or 2...

I know the course rating/slope is supposed to adjust for these types of things...but in reality it doesn't happen as it's impossible for the system to know what type of golfer one is.

Unfortunately the gap for me results in a lot more strokes...going the wrong way. Any par 4 over 400 yards is trouble, and the long par 3's? Can't reach even with driver. But, get yardage that suits my game and I shoot in the 70s. Sheesh.

That's what I mean....on the proper tee box you shoot well, and your index goes down accordingly.
Move to a longer tee box and the course plays harder than the 2-3 strokes more you will get....
Doesn't make sense...

I would 1) devote more time to your long game (hybrids to driver) as your short game seems to in immaculate form. and 2) If that does not work on your driver, possibly try one with more loft because maybe you aren't getting enough spin to keep it in the air for very long. Or 3) Maybe you could even be over spinning the ball (you would have to go on a launch monitor to confirm) but the ball is going out at maybe slightly less than nominal carry and just hitting and stopping dead due to high spin issues. But try working on it first of all. Another thing to consider is do you hit it so straight because of a very short control the ball swing? If so, try to take a longer back swing and pull down a little more aggressively at the top to create more lag and therefore more 'punch' through the ball if you release just right. That should help gain a few yards anyways.

On the launch monitor I'm anwhere from 3200 to 3500 rpm, depending on m swing. My launch angle is right where it is supposed to be. It's my clubhead speed that is terrible. :-)

whats your clubhead and ball speed?

Clubhead speed is 80 to 84 mph. I don't remember the ball speed.

Hmm... This whole post may sound cynical, but... I'd have to say that maybe, like you suspect, you're not the single handicap that you think you are/wonder if you really are. If you're playing from tees that are too close (especially for an 8.5), then you're not getting a true accounting of your game.

To me, part of golf (and the difficulty of it) is coping with the length of a given hole. And, along with the actual raw yardage, you have to cope with the hazards that, most likely, have been placed where they are to demand different shots. Sometimes a lot of carry is needed to clear something off the tee. (If you don't clear it off the tee, then you're required to maybe hit a longer or more accurate iron/wood than you would have prefered, making things yet more difficult.) To me, that's part of golf.

I looked at that par 3 that played 300 yards one of the days at Oakmont this year, and I thought it was insane. But, then again, I'm not a pro. When you consider that pros probably ought to be able to hit the ball 300 yards, then it's not so insane. Obviously there is thought to be SOME relationship between overall ability (which we measure with indexes) and ability to hit the ball a good distance.

You say your short game is great, but your lack of distance hurts you badly? Then I think you need to work on your long game, because your 8.5 index certainly isn't telling the whole story. Just like I shouldn't be allowed to not putt when I reach the green, you shouldn't be allowed to start at tees that are much closer to make up for your shortcomings (pun moderately intended).

If you are a senior, or a woman, then closer tees are provided as compensation for generalized physical limitations associated with those categories of player (despite the fact that there are probably plenty of seniors and women out there that could drive me off the course). If you don't fall into one of those categories, then, well, I think you should be playing from the middle (typically white around here) tees. I think you'll find that scores from there more accurately portray how your overall golf game is. If your index goes up a lot, that's just an indication that you need a lot of work on your long game.

I just played with a buddy of mine who simply can't keep a wood of any kind on the course. He has to hit 3-iron off of each tee. And, even when he does that, the ball MAY go 120 on a good shot. But the ball doesn't go 120 because of his equipment -- it goes that distance because his swing is a mess (and he knows it). He putts fine, and his short game is decent. But you'd never mistake him for a "good golfer." Should he play from closer tees? No -- he should get help with/work on his game. In the meantime, he simply won't score well. When he starts putting a good swing on the ball, the ball WILL go far.

Golf often requires that you be able to hit the ball some relatively far distances. Hitting the ball ACCURATELY with a longer is usually more difficult than with a shorter club. And that's golf. It's why we complain that our putting was great, but we couldn't get off the tee. Or that as the driver caught fire, the irons went to crap. It requires mental and physical ability, and a ton of practice for most people.

I think you need to back up to the tees that you really ought to be playing, re-evaluate your game, and let the higher scores come initially. Length off the tee is part of the game, and a part that you might simply need to work on a whole lot more.

Good luck! This game is tough -- but it's the best.

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PS -- I've often looked at Long Drive tournaments on tv and wondered if some of those guys are ALSO good golfers. We know they can hit a ball a mile, but can they hit greens in regulation? Can they put? Can they get out of the sand well? Right now, I'd say that you can't be sure that you're an 8.5 until you can cope with the length of a given course from the "appropriate" tee box.

I read your post again, and I think I spent too much time dwelling on you playing from the front tees, as though you suggested that you do it all of the time. Exactly how long a course is "long" to you, and how short feels right? If you're a healthy, young-to-middle-aged man, then you should never be playing from forward tees imo...

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I play from the forward tees maybe 2% of the time. A set of tee boxes is too long for me if there is a par 4 I can't get to in regulation and/or I need to hit driver on a par 3. What's the point of playing from a set of tees if you can't get to a particular hole that was designed to get to with two good shots?

I was playing from the back tees once to a 230 yard par 3. I hit driver and came up short. A guy in the group behind me said, "You didn't use enough club," and he and all his buddies laughed. I got up and down for par, but that's not the point (as a former Marine I wanted to use that driver for something else). I played from 6800 yards and shot a 44 on the front: Driver, 5-wood, wedge, and driver on all par 3s. I fell apart on the back because I didn't stay with my game but started trying to kill the ball.

Sam Snead once said that if a golfer can't shoot par or better he should be playing from the forward tee. I can see everyone kringing.

I suggest moderation. Many people like myself who have low double digit handicaps - say between 10 and 15, will look for course yardages in the 6200 to 6500 range. This is usually the blue tees but that can vary from course to course.

A par 3 that is 230 yards, or a course that is 6800 yards, would usually be considered the "tips" and this type of yardage is at least two tee boxes removed from the "forward" tees. Again, I would go for moderation, which would typically be the blues.

I think you should be prepared to play a few par 4's that you can't reach in two. Most of us face a couple holes like that - maybe they are up hill, or it is windy, or they are tight and we elect to play a safer club off the tee, but on the other hand, there should be some par 4's where you play driver followed by short iron or wedge. It all balances out. If you can't reach a par 4 in two, then you play it in your head as a par 5 and you go for a bogie 5. That's why you or I are not scratch golfers. We don't par all the holes.

That's how I play those unreachable par 4, like par 5s and occasionally make par. The irony was when I played that course from the tips I made par on the toughest hole on the course...a 450 yard par 4. I usually play in "moderation" but get tired of hitting fairway woods and hybrids on my approaches. I like using my irons and it's fun to hit an approach with iron for a change.

I think the problem is in my head. I can't convince myself that I'm an okay golfer at an 8.5, and have beat plenty of guys that outdrive me by 50 yards+, because I can't hit it 250 or so. Maybe I need to see Bob Rotella or that Gio fellow on The Golf Channel. LOL!

I'm 52, very flexible, 6'5"/200 pounds and in decent shape. I've played 82 rounds of golf so far this year. In May I was a 17.2 HI. I always walk when I play. Occasionally I carry my bag, most times I take a pull cart (I ruptured the discs in my neck a couple of years ago and the doc doesn't want me doing heavy lifting, so I mostly take the pull cart). Plus, I'm too young to take a driving cart. :-)

See, that's just it. At 52, and 6'-5", and with great flexibility, you certainly SHOULD be able to generate a lot of club head speed and hit the ball a mile. Perhaps you just haven't developed the skills to do it yet. It sounds like you've almost perfected (if there is such a thing in golf) many of the other skills required, but clearly not the driving aspect.

What are the distances of the rest of your clubs? Are ALL of your clubs short?



This doesn't answer my question about what you consider too long. I was looking to hear what YARDAGE you think is too long. The difference is that there may be tees that YOU think are too long, but that the USGA (or whoever sets up yardage and slope and whatnot) thinks should be well within your [or the average male golfer] reach. If this is the case, then I think you need to re-evaluate your game. Isn't this exactly why you're asking the question in the first place, because you're not comfortable with being an 8.5 while not wanting to play the tees you ought to be playing with that kind of index?

Personally, I think a 230-yard par-3 is ok. Difficult, but reasonable. A 450-yard par-4 requires a good drive (250+), and then a long iron or hybrid in. Again, difficult, but not unreasonable. It is not intended for driver-driver. I think this should tell you something about your game.

Incidentally, why is it, do you think, that you don't hit your driver more than 210? What do you think is the issue?

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I hit all my clubs short, mostly straight, but short. As an example, my 6-iron goes 135. A long course for me is over 6,000 yards. For me a 450 yard par 4 is a well struck drive, a well struck 5-wood, and a well struck wedge. For my game that is unreasonable.

You are absolutely correct in your assessment. I am not comfortable being an 8.5 because I am now in territory I though was reserved for long straight hitters, and folks who could hit a 7-iron 150 yards.

I have the physical ability to hit the ball that far. On two occasions I drove par 4 greens (low 300s). I have NO idea how that happened. Anyway, the problem is obviously in my swing: I either am not getting enough of my lower body into it, I'm releasing the club too early, or I am not getting though the ball. Or...all of the above. :-)

I might have mentioned this already, and if so please accept my apologies, but we have a "short course" at our facility: nine holes, averaging 73 yards. The longest is 103 and the shortest is 49, with very small greens. I average par or better and once shot a -4. I believe if I could hit it 250 or so I would be a pretty fair golfer. I don't swing the club, I slap the ball.

Well, look at it this way -- you're the perfect short game specialist for any scramble!

I appreciate your honesty in this thread, 'cause most people think of length as a macho thing (when, in reality, I think the guy who is able to boast the most at the end of the day is the one who won). But this clearly isn't about eeking 5 more yards out of your drives -- this shortness it really hurting you.

I just pulled some scorecards out of a drawer here of the last courses I played, and see that the length from the "middle" tees are 6231, 6432, 6267, and 6103. The 6267 is my home course, and 70% of the greens are uphill, requiring you to "add some club(s)" to the approach shots. The 6103 course is Merion (hosting the PGA in 2013), where shotmaking and not distance is key. If 6000+ is long for you, and a place like Merion is considered "short" by most people, then... Well, I think that the harsh reality is that you're just not there yet. But it sounds like you already know that, and that you're coming to grips with it. That's very honorable, so you should feel good about that.

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Or, you could start your round by taking the head covers off.

Just kidding, play within yourself and enjoy the game. That is why they offer more than one set of tees anyway.

Bada bing Bada boom John - I think we have a winner !!!

Then again, maybe not. Something stinks around here and I'm not sure what it is.

6'5", 200 and flexible, 80-84 MPH clubhead speed ??? But then you "slap" at the ball ?

Have you taken lessons ? It sounds as though those occassional 300 yarders are when the starts are aligned and you make a full and proper swing with great contact (AND, I'll bet, at least 95 MPH swingspeed).

Certainly it sounds like your "normal" swingpath is not good enough or not on plane. Get some lessons and swing on plane and I'm betting that s.s. gets up to at least 95-100 MPH and your average drive carries about 240-250 or so. From there make solid contact and I'm betting those 7 irons go 150 on the fly.

ANY Par 4 with NO wind should be reachable with a good drive and no more than a 4 wood 2nd. And there should only be 1 or 2 of those on ANY course. If not, you're playing from the wrong tees.

Good luck

That's mighty nice of you and I appreciate your support. It means a lot...helps lower my frustration level.

I wish more people were as enlightened. :-)

Thanks, Rockfish...I will be taking lessons!