I know it's only been one day for the President's Cup but the American's are dominating right now. Why is it that the Americans play so much better in the President's Cup than they do in the Ryder Cup? Is it the competition? Is it Jack? Captains? Less pressure? I can't figure it out. I know that the Ryder Cup is only a 3 day tournament as opposed to 4 for the President's cup, but does that make much of a difference? Why is it such a different team in the President's Cup vs. the Ryder Cup?

Jack.

Answer:

The International team is clearly better than the Euro team, heck it's even better than the US team if you look at all the players - BUT the best TEAM, with emphasize on TEAM, is the Euro team. They are good friends and like each others company both on and off the golf course.

This is why the US team can't beat the Euro Team. The Euro Team can win against both the International team and the US team any day. The international team have no bonds or connections and some how reminds me a bit of the US team - a lot of talent, but no close relations between all the players on the team. The Euro guys are best friends and eat and stay together, when playing tournament all over Europe. The US guys and the International team don't do this quite the same way. Try and walk into a restaurant of a hotel where 6 PGA Tour players are staying. You will most likely see them dine at 6 different tables in the restaurant. Do the same with 6 guys from the Euro Tour. They will sit 6 people together at the same table having a good time.

This is why the Euro team can beat a stronger team (like the US and the International tema) on paper.

BM1 and Claus are both right.
The US team feels the same way about Jack as the EU team feel about each other. They would go to extraordinary lengths not to let them down.
My worry is that Faldo won't be a good influence on the Europe team. One of his Vice-Captains bailing out now is a very ominous sign.

Jack Nicklaus was the US captain in 1983 when the US team came within a whisker of losing the Ryder Cup for the first time in years, and again in 1987 when they lost for the first time on US soil ever. His record as RC captain is not very good, one narrow win and one loss.

Ah how about a new idea, the euros are just better. I could never buy the idea about the euros are better friends, so that is why they win. I just think they are better and I don't care how many pizzas the US order together or how many dresses the wives buy together, on paper the euros look better and they putt better. The U.S. isn't that dominating anymore because the rest of the world IS better. That is it, o.k. I'm out of here, any pga players want to join me for a pizza?

I'm not exactly on the PGA Tour, but I'll join you - where you at

Then explain how the US team manages to beat the International team which has better players than the European Team. Take a look at the stats just for this years International Team versus last years Euro Team.

Career PGA Tour Wins: Internationals 87, Europeans 19
PGA Tour wins in year of Cup: Internationals 7, Europeans 0

European Tour Wins: Internationals 60, Europeans 122
Euro Tour Wins in Year of Cup: Internationals 2, Europeans 12

Wins on other Pro Tours(Asian, Japanese, Australian): Internationals 73, Europeans 38
Wins on other Pro Tours in Year of Cup: Internationals 2, Europeans 0

Career Major Championships: Internationals 11, Europeans 2
Majors in year of Cup: Internationals 1, Europeans 0

Average world rank at time of Cup: Internationals 18.5, Europeans 22.75
Highest World Rank at time of Cup: Internationals 5, Europeans 8
Lowest World Rank at time of Cup: Internationals 46, Europeans 53

Given that the US team lost embarrassingly to the Europeans in the Ryder Cup, they should be getting dominated by an International team that is more talented than those Euros. But that isn't happening. And that is generally how it works, the Internationals are more talented than the Europeans, but the US still manages to beat the Internationals quite easily. So there must be something else than just talent.

Bottle, or lack of it. Statistics mean squat in a cup competition.

Agreed...

Better? They're all winners on paper, but playing as a team is what counts.

05 president's cup was awesome... the camaraderie was oozing and it's obviously bleeding over into this competition for the US.

Same happens for the Euros.

I am confused how anyone could think the International team is stronger than the American team?

Considering we have the four top ranked players in the world on our side.

Never the less I have suspected that the RC teams have been severly over Captained for years. Which in turn only increases the pressure on the US team.

That said no way is the Presidents Cup on a level prestige wise with the RC there is not as much pressure in the first place because there is not as much at stake.

Chicago, next time your in town, I'll buy the pizza!

O.k. I give up, maybe it is the dinners, I don't know, but i wouldn't say that the euros embarrased the U.S. I expect the euros to win. We are the underdogs. I would agree that the internationals are more of a mystery than the U.S.

Great stuff, I may want pepperoni and ham on my pizza and some low fat cheese, I have to be able to wear my slim EURO J Lindeberg cloths on the Chicago course the next day

Which course do you play most often in the Chicago area ?

Shocking! The International team looks stronger on paper with more wins than the Euro team???!!! Gee, could that be because there are more top ranked players in the top 50 from the International Countries compared to the Euro Countries?

Top ranked players by Countries in the top 20...

USA 5
Euro 5
Internationals 10

So of course, on paper, the International team on paper should be better. But, whether it be the dinners, the pizza, the ping-pong, or the pints of Guinness...whatever, the fact is, the matches are played on the course over a few days where the team that gets fired up the best and plays as a team the best, wins.

Personally, I thing the diversity of the Euro culture comes together better than the diversity of Americans which comes together better than the wide diversity of the International team....simple as that. It's not perfect science, but how else to explain it?

IMO, you can't compare the President's cup to the Ryder cup. One is a friendly exhibition match, the other is a competitive match. I even read that the captains are engineering a Mike Weir vs Woods singles match for the crowd. If it was a competition that mattered to people, you wouldn't put Weir up against Woods on present form.

Why the USA have done poorly in the Ryder Cup recently is a more of an issue. First of all, the European Team are always more up for it, purely because they feel that their ability is not as appreciated as the US team. Historically, your average US player or press hack will always run down the quality of the Euro tour in comparison to the PGA tour - and if this is where you make your living, being told that you are by definition second-rate, will always motivate you to go out there and shut people up.

So, the Euros have traditionally had more to prove to the world, whereas half the US team are at the top of the game and only have something to lose. Therefore, I would say the US team don't enjoy the competition as much as the Euros, therefore they don't care as much. I'm not saying they don't want to win, but it comes down to the attitude "Oh we lost, no big deal, i'm off home in my jet!" Other factors such as the lack of chemistry in the team, lack of experience in matchplay may also be factors, but not huge.

However, after getting stuffed in the last two matches, I'm sure the attitude of the US will be different next year, as it is the Euros that are waiting to be knocked off their pedestal.

Lastly, at the K club the US team lost primarily because of one thing - strength in depth. The top half of the US team were a bit better than the Euros, but didn't really perform. The bottom half was pretty sh*t in comparison to the Euros, therefore they lost - simple.

I have always wanted to ask this maybe this is the place?

Why would the Europeans have any more experience in Matchplay, or foursomes or fourball for that matter?

I have always thought the foursomes was a total novelty way to play golf and needed to be taken out of the Ryder Cup and the Presidents Cup format.

Lets face it the only time we play that way over here is as a joke.

Matchplay, foursomes, fourball are played more frequently in the U.K. compared to the U.S. in competitions.

Muirfield only allows alternate shot in the afternoons. Can you imagine a US Country Club with a policy like that? No way. No club has the guts for that. Well....maybe there is one, but certainly not well known.

Guts? Why do they do it to get more people on the course?

If I had to play foursomes all the time growing up I would have quit.

Outside of tradition, it is the oldest golf club in the world, I have no idea why they do foursomes in the afternoon. But I would hardly call it a negative. And no one has to play foursomes "all the time". It takes some guts to not bow to criticism from those who think there is something wrong with foursomes, but again, no club in the US would stand up to that criticism and do something a little different a few afternoons out of the week.

Your typical country club is not exactly stacked from morning to night with golfers. Many afternoons you can find a country club pretty empty. So why not implement a style of play that brings members together, instills a little competitive spirit, and offers a new way to appreciate the game?

Is there something wrong with versatility?

Versatility

I have seen foursomes ruin friendships and almost cause divorces.

Hey if its a tradition there , good for them. If there members complained they would change it so I do not see it as gutsy.

Personally I play golf because its and indivitual sport.

Even when I play the occasional fourball or preferred shot I still feel like I can control the outcome. At least control my part of it.

In a foursome you control nothing your partner puts you in the hedges all you can do is hack it out.

Like preferred shot I can take it in small doses.

In our member guest we play nine holes of team blitz points nine holes fourball nine holes of preferred shot and the last eighteen holes we play select tee foursomes. The year my partner and I won we shot 33 that nine.

It's not the matchplay itself that's the problem. Just look at the records of American's in the WGC World Matchplay as an example. It's been contested 9 times, an American has won 6 of the 9 times. 2 Europeans have won, and 1 International player. There has been at least 1 American in the final match 8 of 9 times, and the finals have been all Americans 5 times. The semi-finals have had at least 1 American every year, and of the possible 36 semi-finalists, 22 have been American. Until recently they had done very well in the singles portion of the Ryder Cup. They've lost the last 3, and from 1977-2002 they had lost only 3 total. In the President's Cup, they never lost the singles portion, even in the year they lost the whole match 20.5-11.5 they tied the singles.

But foursome and fourball are a whole different animal. I mentioned this on another board, foursomes and fourball reward a different type of play than most of the American teams are used to playing especially the top guys. Their games are built for the most part for major championship golf, which in this day and age is basically one style of golf. It's very methodical, do what you can to hit the fairway, if that means you can't hit driver, then don't. Do whatever you can to be on the green, but don't go flag hunting. Fourball and foursomes are different. They reward a go for broke style that is completely different. You have to try shots in them that you would never try in a stroke play tournament because the risk is too great. The only place the Americans get that is at the birdie fest events which most of the top guys skip. So the only ones who are used to that style are the guys that barely make the team and then end up doing well, like JJ Henry etc. The top Americans aren't used to that, and its not like they can flip a switch and just become that style of player.

I agree with you that fourball is a more go for broke type of golf but I do not see that at all in foursomes. I think the big problem they have in foursomes is staying in rythm.

Seriously have you ever heard of a professional event in the world playing fourball or foursome anyplace in Europe or the rest of the world????

I mean do European school boys play a lot of foursomes or fourballs?


Personally I stick with the idea that the last few Ryder cup teams have been over Captained. They need a Captain that is big time laid back and does not make a big deal out of it.

I doubt we will get that with Zinger but we can only hope.

You can be expected to win and still have it be an embarrassing loss. The US lost 18.5 to 9.5, and didn't win a single individual portion of the event. Same thing in 2004 with another 18.5 to 9.5 loss. They nearly had their points doubled both of those years. They hadn't lost that badly ever in the history of the event, and hadn't had a single digit point total since 1959 when there were only 12 points available and they won with 8.5.

There's one that I can think of that does both. The World Cup(formerly WGC World Cup), is a four round two person team event that since 2000 has two rounds of fourball and two rounds of foursomes. The US(Woods and David Duval) won the event in 2000. Beyond that I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Americans used play them a lot more. In the 1930s-1950s there were fourball events every year, and I think even some foursomes. Ben Hogan's first PGA Tour win was a fourball event in 1938 and he won 7 Fourball events. Byron Nelson's streak of 11 tour wins in a row started by winning the Miami Four-Ball.

European schoolboys do not play much foursomes and fourballs any more. They play medal golf a lot more.

Fourball rewards a certain calculated 'go for broke' mentality, but then shouldn't Phil play it well?

Foursomes is not a 'go for broke' game. Its a 'don't lose to a par' game.

The US team managed the fourballs and foursomes pretty well between the 1920s and the 1980s, ironically during the time when Europeans (or GB&I players) played much more of these formats, and it is only recently they have been playing poorly in them.

I am a member at Prestwick which is in my hometown. I play a ton of courses like Olympia Fields. If you are in the area, shoot me an email and we will get together! I don't know about that low fat cheese! This is America, not too many of us fit into Lindebergs!

Good point, I forgot the final numbers.

Certainly some of the Europeans have played team golf from a young age. For example, I've played in foursomes competitions for the club the last 2 years despite being off 12 and 7 when I was playing them. Over in ireland, there is a lot of team golf. Also, most if not all of the European players will have played for their country or province or whatever. That means they're playing for a team and bonding with their team mates

And at that time there were other things in play. The US had a huge talent disparity most years, especially when it was just the US versus GB&I. Starting in the late 1970s and growing until now that talent gap has closed.

The other thing is, tour golf back in those days was totally different. The tour wasn't as big money wise as it is now, so guys couldn't afford to pick and choose as much as they do now. Thus their games had to be built for all different types of play. They played in fourball matches on tour so they had to know how to do it. There were matchplay events on tour, heck even the PGA Championship was matchplay for the first 30 years of the Ryder Cup.

They played more diverse styles of courses, so they had to be able to adapt their game to the different courses. Even the guys that built their years around the majors faced far more diverse courses than what they do today. Major championship golf has devolved in the US to a single type of play....hard fairways, hard greens, long rough, penal bunkers etc. That wasn't the case back in the old days. And tour courses were totally different. One week you might have a place with long rough and tight fairways, the next it might be wide fairways and little rough....and conditions could go from bad to great depending upon what week you were playing.

No you guys got it all wrong. Jack likes to party. Unlike ole stick up the butt Tom Lehman.

I think it is all mental. In the Ryder cup the US team plays not to lose, the Euros free-wheel it and play to win. Sergio etc. play just the opposite in the majors for whatever reason. I think that on paper the american team is as good as either the Euros or the international team, it all comes down to who plays the best and handles the pressure the best. Why is Tiger unbeatable with the lead in a major and very beatable in a team event? Why will Sergio never win a major, but makes every putt he sees in the Ryder cup?

I think I have fianally figured it our the answer is simple-CULTURE and your belief system. The Euros take the Ryder cup very personally, the Americans seem to want to tolerate the whole affair and seem to enjoy the ping pong matches after the golf is done more than the golf it's self.

When the current Euro players were growing up they saw Faldo, Seve etc. winning Ryder cups and beating the big bad Americans. They thrived on it and it became their identiy. The Americans grew up hearing that winning majors was the end all in golf. It is what made Jack the greatest ever, and it is in thier minds why the Euros were so great during the late 80's and 90's. Most of the Americans could care less how many Ryder Cup matches Seve won, but most of them know he won 5 majors.
The next problem then is that the Americans are done mentally after the PGA champ is over, and the tour Champ is wrapped up. Remember when Phil showed up to the Ryder Cup with new clubs and no game whatsoever? Seve would have never done that, nor does Sergio. I dont think most of the Euros today beleive they can win a major, but they believe they can win the Ryder Cup and they take great pride in it.

Jack wasn't exactly stellar as a Ryder Cup captain, he was the first American captain lose the Cup on American Soil.

That is complete and utter BS. Of course all the Europeans believe they'll win a major, it's just they know they'll win the RC

Yeah, I don't agree either. I believe that most of any tour player believes they can win. Sure there will be guys that will be in a slump and not carry their usual confidence at limited times during the year. I think it it the goal of every tour player to win a major. How could you say that every euro isn't trying to win the British open? I find that unbelieveable. I agree with your theory about the mental side but the conclusions you draw about the euros and Sergio are invalid. That is a very bold statement to say that Sergio will never win a major especially since he is getting closer and closer. Most critics i've heard said he will win soon and all the evidence points that way. I think he needs to have that same mental toughness that he does in the ryder cup and then he can win the majors. Unless Sergio quits or gets in a fatal accident, he appears to be on course to win a major, maybe multiples.

The statement was they do not believe they can win a major. It really has little to do with if they can or not.

He stated Sergio will never win a major and the euros don't believe they will win a major. I agree DYL's statements have nothing to do with their successes or failures. The point is to make statements like that, you really have to have some strong evidence, which of course he doesn't, it is merely his opinion. That is why emc said his opnion is b.s.

Of course the Euro players believe they can win majors, although not all will, but so too do a few US players who will probably never win one either.

The idea that the US team doesn't really care about the RC or that they are too tired after playing in the PGA and the Tour Champ are both ridiculous and pathetic excuses.

For a start, the Euro team mostly play in the same PGA and their own Volvo Masters, and aren't these guys supposed to be professional athletes? If they can't put up with a trip in a private plane and a week in 5-star luxury to represent their country, they should withdraw and go do whatever they prefer instead.

Jim Furyk reacted very angrily at suggestions last year that the US team did not care, and I think all his team-mates would agree.

Good points!

You are right, it is my opinion, and I was trying to make a point. Of course there is no proof to my statment. If I could re-phrase it I guess i would say that they (Euros) beleive they can win the Ryder Cup, but they lack some self confidence when it comes to winning majors. Sure Serigio may overcome his mental block in the majors someday, but I get the feeling he will really have to play out of his mind, make a lot of putts and have a big lead coming down the stretch to make it happen. Where as, he is the last person the Americans want to see have to make a big put during a Ryder Cup match.
look, I know that every player out there wants to win a major, and that everyone who has ever played for the Ryder Cup wants to win. My point is they both have a monkey on thier back, they are putting too much pressure on themselves and the longer they think about it the more it will get to them. Colin has never won a major, Westwood and Clark have never won a major there is no guarantee that Sergio will win one either.

Deep down I dont know if this is true.....I truly dont know if they believe they will win a major, I do truly believe that wish/hope really want to win one, but I think that if they believed it they would make it happen sooner rather than later. I think Monty, Sergio etc. all have a little self doubt in this area. As for your statment about the Ryder Cup... I concur. As for the American's-everything I just said about the Euros but vice versa.

I get what your saying about having little doubts but why would they even enter if they didn't think they could win? Look at Nick Dougherty at the US OPen for example, he qualifies for the event in Walton Heath, and then has a first round lead to end up 7th. He had no right to play well there, on his US Open debut but he had all the belief in the world

Team USA fail in the Ryder Cup because.........

Although they usually have the 3 or 4 higest world ranked players, these players generally under perform (or bottle it) in the high pressure Ryder Cup atmosphere, the remainder of the team, although probably higher ranked than the rest of team Europe is mainly down to the fact that you pick up far more world ranking points playing PGAtour than european tour. Thus although the players 'seem' higher they are in fact NOT.
Take out the top 15 superstars of world golf, and the European tour certainly produces a far more, rounded tour player, sure they don't get used to one style of golf, this being a major factor why europe have not been producing to many major champs, however they travel together, experience different cultures and the tour atmosphere is far more appealing and conjusive to 'friendships' than the dog eat dog world of the USTour.

I BELIEVE THAT IN THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE RYDER CUP WORLD RANKINGS, STROKE AVERAGES MEAN SH!@ IT ALL COMES DOWN TO A PLAYERS HEART, COURAGE AND THE TEAMS ABILITY TO SHARE THE PRESSURES AND EXPECTATIONS.

THIS IS WHERE THE EUROPIANS WIN EVERY TIME.

So because they have not won a major this must mean they are not as good as golfer as somebody who has.

So going on your OPINION, somebody like Zach Johnson who has one major is a far better golfer than Monty who has won 7 Order of merit titles????????

Are you MAD?

Sure measure a golfers ability by majors, but lets get a little grip on reality, to win a major you need to play well and you need your luck at the right time. To win an order of merit you need just plain Talent through out the whole season.

I can tell you right now, i would take Monty's career over the current and probable one of Zac Johnson or Ben Curtis.