Who's the Arse?, Taking the joking a little too far? Options

[stevestrike]

I play as part of a regular foursome that gets pretty rough with the trash talk, teasing, and general mind-games on the course. It's mostly in good fun, and until today, I thought we all knew where the line was. e.g. You don't talk during someone's backswing, don't stand in/on their line, etc...

I use a GPS on the course, and another guy uses a laser rangefinder. Between the two of us, we usually have the distances covered. We share them openly with the other guys, so as to speed up play. Today, we pull up to the 3rd tee box, a short par 3, uphill and blind to the putting surface. The guy lasers the flag and announces "It's 144 to the flag." I play my 144 club, and it's a winner--dead on line. When we get up to the green, it's 20 yards past the hole. We ask the 3rd guy what distance he got from the laser and he says "124". He purposefully gave us the wrong yardage to try and f*** with our game. I was pretty pissed off, and told him to f*** himself. I refused to keep his score that round, and basically didn't speak to him again all day. This was too far in my opinion, borderline cheating. However, I'm looking for other points of view as to why this type of behavior is OK, and if you have ever done something like that to your playing partners. For his part, he was completely unapologetic about it, and said that we should have checked the yardage he gave us on the GPS. What a pal.

[tjy355]

Sounds like your "pal" is a DICK.

[carogers1]

yeah, definitely a D-bag move.

[130R]

Sounds like your "pal" is a DICK.

+1 did you have a wager on the game?

[Dr.John]

Yea, not proper golf conduct by your friend. Knowingly giving wrong information is just dirty golf. I'm sure you weren't expecting your friend to lie to you, so there was no reason to check the distance yourself. My suggestion to you, focus hard and take his money on the course. Beating him will be his punishment and your revenge.

[hoganfan924]

Although the USGA has not made an official ruling on this (you can write to them and ask for one), this ruling is similar enough that I believe your "friend" could have been assessed a 2 stroke penalty (keeping in mind that providing yardage information is not considered advice):

8-1/9 Misleading Statement About Club Selection
Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?
A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[GetInTheHole!!!]

LOL. That is kinda funny though come on.

[SpinMill75]

Because the line got crossed, you're going to have to follow the rules of now asking for/ giving advice.

[wolfpackblack]

Although the USGA has not made an official ruling on this (you can write to them and ask for one), this ruling is similar enough that I believe your "friend" could have been assessed a 2 stroke penalty (keeping in mind that providing yardage information is not considered advice):

8-1/9 Misleading Statement About Club Selection
Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?
A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

I think that sounds pretty fair. My friends and I share yardages as well since not all of us have anything like gps or lasers and it definitely would be a problem if someone pulled that in our group.

[harold baines]

you should be able to quickly judge if he's giving you info that's 20 yards off....


he probably shouldn't have been joking with you like that, but

You're on a teebox on a par 3, so the yardage of the hole is on your scorecard and markers on the ground, a tee shot on a par 3 is the easiest place on the course to figure out the yardage for yourself

even if someone tells me it's XXX yards to the pin, I'm going to at least still look for myself even if in a brief manner to check and see if what they told me makes sense

[DRGJR72]

After reading the story I initially laughed. I thought it was pretty funny. Guy pulled a good one on you. I don't know what the protocol in your group is as far as that goes. If that is a sacred no-no then I understand the anger.

My only question is, you state, "I use GPS and he uses a laser range finder". Where was the GPS on this hole? Since you are able to get two results of the yardages, you should have been able to notice that his yardage was off. Maybe he took advantage of you not having the gps on the tee. Don't know.

Bottom line is if he is a good friend, get over it. He was playing a joke. If he is an acquaintance and it irritates you to no end, then just don't play golf with him any more. Apparently it bothered you enough to post it on a website for opinions. I personally would be thinking of ways to get him back instead of dwelling on the fact that he pulled one on you that you fell for. What to learn...get your own yardage in this group. You never know what is going to happen now.

I also agree that 20 yards is pretty significant on a yardage difference. Should have been able to pick up on it if it affected your game that much, especially if you have a "144" club.

[hattrick3518]

dick move on his part, but unless you lost a ton of money because of the wrong number then i would let it go...

[5under]

I agree with everything everybody has said so far.
You can get him back without him knowing it.
Which will avoid starting a war between you two.
I know what I am about to suggest is as bad as the sportsmanship he has demonstrated and can be considered illegal.
Don't do this if you feel guilty or bad about it, but as long as you only do it to him I think it is justified.
Before you read my suggestions for his punishment, I would like to say: I enjoy helping the other players in my foursome read their putts.
It gives me practice for reading my own putts.
I also am glad to find or help find somebody's ball.
I hope they do the same for me.

Here is the punishment: Every time you are on the putting green and you think his putt brakes a couple inches, tell him it looks pretty straight.
When he has a longer putt and you think it brakes about 8 inches, tell him you think it brakes about 10 inches or you think it brakes about 6 inches.
If you have a similar putt to his and you putt first, if your putt rolls long, tell him the green was faster than you thought.
Pretend you did not see where his ball landed when he can't find it.
If you do this on enough holes to him you will be able to add at least a stroke or two to his score every round and he will never know.
You can stop when you are satisfied with his punishment.

[mjtoal]

Although the USGA has not made an official ruling on this (you can write to them and ask for one), this ruling is similar enough that I believe your "friend" could have been assessed a 2 stroke penalty (keeping in mind that providing yardage information is not considered advice):

8-1/9 Misleading Statement About Club Selection
Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?
A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

And you are allowed to apply the two strokes with a wedge to his head.

[rooks]

I play as part of a regular foursome that gets pretty rough with the trash talk, teasing, and general mind-games on the course. It's mostly in good fun, and until today, I thought we all knew where the line was. e.g. You don't talk during someone's backswing, don't stand in/on their line, etc...

I use a GPS on the course, and another guy uses a laser rangefinder. Between the two of us, we usually have the distances covered. We share them openly with the other guys, so as to speed up play. Today, we pull up to the 3rd tee box, a short par 3, uphill and blind to the putting surface. The guy lasers the flag and announces "It's 144 to the flag." I play my 144 club, and it's a winner--dead on line. When we get up to the green, it's 20 yards past the hole. We ask the 3rd guy what distance he got from the laser and he says "124". He purposefully gave us the wrong yardage to try and f*** with our game. I was pretty pissed off, and told him to f*** himself. I refused to keep his score that round, and basically didn't speak to him again all day. This was too far in my opinion, borderline cheating. However, I'm looking for other points of view as to why this type of behavior is OK, and if you have ever done something like that to your playing partners. For his part, he was completely unapologetic about it, and said that we should have checked the yardage he gave us on the GPS. What a pal.

If it was official competition, you should be pissed.

If this was a social round between mates, after seeing your reaction, all 3 of them have probably already bought your next Birthday present - a pretty pink dress!

[philfan316]

Sorry man, but you should have checked for yourself.

You should have seen this coming with all of the petty trash talk. It just breeds anger and eventually someone says something they shouldn't or does something cheap.

What if you would have fatted it a little? Would you get mad?

Were you playing a course you werent familiar with?

Yes, that guy who did that sounds like an arse, but you should have seen that coming.

[larrybud]

I believe your opponent broke a rule in appendix DB, otherwise known as Appendix DoucheBag.

[SwingMan]

Considering that your group has a history of giving each other yardage -- and correct yardage -- and it was an uphill par 3 with a blind green where it's difficult based on the location of the pin to determine yardage (one could have a distance error of 30 yards on a typical deep green), the guy was a sh!t.

If it was a well meaning joke, he should have told you on the tee box, so you could have hit another ball with correct yardage.

But he was malicious.

I'd probably give him a very cold shoulder and wait for an opportunity to get back at him -- but in a well meaning way. It would probably involve an attractive cart girl and real embarrassment for him.

This post has been edited by SwingMan: Jul 3 2009, 08:08 AM

[stage1350]

Would you be crossing the line if you reciprocated with a punch to his testicles?

[elp3022]

If you ever do this to me I'll hit you in the shin with my 7 iron.

Seriously though, not a cool move. If he's a good friend I'd say something about it. Not worth losing a friendship over.

[stevestrike]

You guys are pretty funny. It makes me feel better anyway to know that it wasn't just me that thought he pulled a DB move here. I'll get over it and move on, but it's something I would never do to anyone I was playing with, and I wanted to see how you guys felt.

Someone asked "what if I had fatted it?" Well, one of the guys did fat it and made a birdie. He wasn't too pissed off.

It was an unfamiliar course, with fairly large greens. This particular green is 45 yards from front to back, uphill & blind to the putting surface. I knew that the yardage on the card was 129, so pin placement could easily be 144 on this green. Why should I second guess a friend when sharing yardages is common for our group?

even if someone tells me it's XXX yards to the pin, I'm going to at least still look for myself even if in a brief manner to check and see if what they told me makes sense

Really? You're sitting in the cart, and your buddy is on the box with a laser, and then turns to your group and says, "It's 144 to the pin". You would double check that? Why would I second guess a friend when sharing yardages is common for our group? He typically does this on every par 3. On par 4/5 with hazards, I will get the GPS an announce that it shows XXX yards to the creek, or XXX to clear the water.

Let me also say that I probably could have picked up on the pin being 124 instead of 144 had I paid closer attention. I had my yardage so I lined up, and hit my shot. 144 is a nice 8-iron for me, and I hit it just right. I probably would have played a PW to 124. I didn't stare at the pin to judge if it "was really" 144 or not.

I never thought about getting back at him on the course, but that's not really my nature to go out of my way to be malicious.

PS--I think my not talking to him did screw with his game, because he proceeded to play a very poor round, and I beat him by handily.

This post has been edited by stevestrike: Jul 3 2009, 01:20 PM

[harold baines]

even if someone tells me it's XXX yards to the pin, I'm going to at least still look for myself even if in a brief manner to check and see if what they told me makes sense

Really? You're sitting in the cart, and your buddy is on the box with a laser, and then turns to your group and says, "It's 144 to the pin". You would double check that? Why would I second guess a friend when sharing yardages is common for our group? He typically does this on every par 3. On par 4/5 with hazards, I will get the GPS an announce that it shows XXX yards to the creek, or XXX to clear the water.

Let me also say that I probably could have picked up on the pin being 124 instead of 144 had I paid closer attention. I had my yardage so I lined up, and hit my shot. 144 is a nice 8-iron for me, and I hit it just right. I probably would have played a PW to 124. I didn't stare at the pin to judge if it "was really" 144 or not.

I'd at least look at where the teebox was located, compared to the scorecard yardage marker on the ground, so yeah I'd probably second guess his info even coming from a friend, ultimately the yardage and club choice is made by me so I want to judge for myself over trusting someone else.

your friend is a bit of a dick for doing that though, no doubt about that

[BankerGolfer]

If you were playing him for money, then you shouldn't be getting or trusting yardages from him anyway. If it's a friendly round, then he was a DB for screwing with you.

[stevestrike]

We play for (small) money sometimes, but this was just a friendly round. I decided to mess with him today, and told the foursome that I was assessing a 2-stroke penalty for his violation of rule 8-1/9. He threw a fit, of course, and accused me of breaking the rules by getting the yardage from him in the first place. Of course, I threw that back in his face that asking for a yardage was NOT a rules violation, and he clearly has no grasp of the rules of golf anyway to suggest something so stupid, and then I reminded him that with or without his 2-stroke penalty he lost the round anyway. Good times, good times.

With friends like this...

[OpusX20]

Since you asked, I think you overreacted. It was a DB move on his part for sure. He should have said something on the tee box. But, not keeping his score and not talking to him the rest of the day does not seem like a proportional response to me. You told him to Ef-off. That should have been enough to let him know he crossed a line. The rest of it seems a bit junior highish to me. (No offense to the junior highers in the audience.)

[stevestrike]

You might be right, and I did ask. (PS--love the OpusX, and all the Fuente line!) Part of what bothers me about it is that he acted as if he did nothing wrong, and told me to ef-off right back. In other words, he stuck to his DB move, and even tried to defend it. Had he copped to the fact that it was a crappy thing to do, we could move on.

[larrybud]

If you were playing him for money, then you shouldn't be getting or trusting yardages from him anyway.

Why not? What happened to golf being a gentleman's game and good sportsmanship?

I'm surprised there's not a specific rule against giving knowingly false information. The only thing close is giving incorrect score when asked.

[Jean-Claude]

The exact same thing happened to me about 6 years ago. A really good buddy did it to me. I got pretty pissed. I ended up hitting the ball 20 yards long into OOB based off of his info.

I was upset but didn't let it ruin our friendship. Beyond that round, it got funny to me. We now laugh whenever it comes up. He did it to someone else we know and we laugh at that too. It's not really a big deal. Some guys are just pranksters and you have to expect that stuff. It's only a game, nothing worth losing a friend over.

[Bobbers]

Be a good sport, kill him with a smile on your face...slowly....then move on.

[xxio]

Just to clarify the ruling brought up. It relates to club selection and not yardage. Because helping giving club selection constitutes advice. Yardage is factual, it can and should be checked by the player himself or his caddy. Hence no penalty for wrong yardage.

I do agree the joke was pretty bad.

This post has been edited by xxio: Jul 6 2009, 12:27 AM

[MrJones]

I've found that I can take any deal of mind games, trash talk, or pretty much any other kind of screwing around guys do on the course. Until it affects my play. I can't handle someone doing anything that effects my golf game negatively. I fall apart and completely lose the enjoyment of my round. I've come close to walking off the course. I feel like it's going to be a problem for me in the long run.

Nothing kills my game quicker than someone verbally routing for you to hit a bad shot and then even going so far as to laugh after you do. I shouldn't let it bother me but it does.

[Bluefan75]

I accidentally gave One_Putt_Blunder the wrong yardage at We Ko Pa. Short Par 3, and I must have been getting the building behind the flag, because I got 156, and when he flew it by a mile, I figured something was up. The block in the ground said 121, and a re-shoot gave 118. Oops.

We weren't playing a match, but based on that, I told him to re-tee another and the first shot didn't happen.

[mikethedog]

If you play in a group that trash talks and plays mind games you'd better be prepared for the fact that someone at some point is going to cross the line. Perhaps a group (serious) discussion of where that line is would be best for all involved.

[5under]

I accidentally gave One_Putt_Blunder the wrong yardage at We Ko Pa. Short Par 3, and I must have been getting the building behind the flag, because I got 156, and when he flew it by a mile, I figured something was up. The block in the ground said 121, and a re-shoot gave 118. Oops.

We weren't playing a match, but based on that, I told him to re-tee another and the first shot didn't happen.

I understand that you are just sharing a story and I thank you for the story, but there is a big difference between 156 yds and 118 yds.
I know that he or you or I might not be able to estimate the yardage to within a yard or two and maybe 10 yards, but if a player can't notice the difference between 118 yards and 156 yards I'm not sure knowing the yardage would actually help that golfer.
For most golfers, we are talking about the difference of the shot requiring a SW maybe PW for 118 yards and a 9,8, or 7 iron for 156 yards.
A golfer should definitely be able to stand over a shot and think "Hmm, that looks pretty short for an 8 iron I should be able to get there with a wedge".
When I first started golfing I played many courses that did not have any yardage markers.
I had to become fairly proficient at looking at my target and deciding what club would get me there.
I didn't even know the yardage I hit each club.
I just knew that my 9 iron won't make it and my 6 iron is too much, so it is either an 8 or a 7 iron.
The wind is a little in my face and the pin looks like it is on the back half of the green and the green is tilted toward me, so 7 iron it is.
I think that I made the correct club selection as often then as I do now using GPS or a Range Finder.
When your GPS or Range Finder says it's 175 Yards to the pin, you will almost automatically grab your club that you hit 175 yards on level ground with no wind and no hazards near the landing area to avoid.
This can sometimes simplify the game and take some thoughts and worries out of the shot for you.
If you don't use GPS or a Range Finder, you will enter many more variables into the equation such as how you are feeling at that time, are you fading the ball or drawing the ball today, are the greens soft or hard, is there danger behind the green, is the green tilted from back to front, which direction is the wind coming from, what is the speed of the wind, what club did the other guys in my group hit and what was the result, what club did you use and what happened the last time you had a similar looking distance, what type of shot do I want to hit, do I want to shoot at the pin or the center of the green etc...
I find that I do best by blending the two methods.
I look at the target and estimate the yardage in my head.
I double check or confirm that yardage with GPS or a Range Finder or yardage markers.
If they are close to the same I accept that yardage as accurate and I move on to gathering the other information I listed above.
I sometimes conclude that my "175 club" is not the right one for the shot and I move up or down a club or two depending on the results of the information I have gathered.
You will see a PGA Pro and his caddy have many conversations in the fairway discussing all aspects involved before committing to a club, target and type of shot that will be attempted.
I know it was your friend and not you that misjudged 118 yards as 156 yards, but go out and play an entire round without using anything, but your own judgment on deciding what the actual yardage is and what club to use and bring your depth perception challenged friend with you.
You will both learn a lot about how to use everything available to make a correct club selection without using any modern technology.
Using what you learn will improve your golf game and your friends golf game.

This post has been edited by 5under: Jul 6 2009, 12:52 PM

[Hawaiianhacker]

next round, run over his ball with your cart by 'accident'...

[DavePelz4]

Maybe a stupid question, but did/could you have asked him about it once you got to the green? Is it possible he just made a mistake? Would he have told you if he was messing with you? We have a couple of guys in our group with different GPS units and sometimes they will vary 3-7 yards in distance. We all do our own checking and there's a fair amount of smack in our regular group. I'm not a fan of the lasers anyway...I'd probably be pointing it at a tree instead of the pin.

[dlygrisse]

Total DB move, not funny at all especially if you are playing for $$$. I would be livid........

I will say I did this to my ex boss once.....we were playing after I got a new job and he was cheating, kept mis counting strokes moving his ball etc. Finally I had had enough and he asked what club? (they guy was too lazy to look at the sprinkler heads) I said 6 iron knowing full well he could easily get a 7 or 8 there, hit his best shot of the day and air mailed the green OB. LOL, I have great satisfcation about that moment 15 years later. Would never do it to someone I respected though.

[stevestrike]

Maybe a stupid question, but did/could you have asked him about it once you got to the green? Is it possible he just made a mistake?

Oh we did, and it was 100% intentional. He gave us a bad yardage on purpose to mess with our game. He's the kind of player who's in a great mood--as long as he's winning. The trash talk flows like diarrhea of the mouth. But if the tables turn, and he isn't doing so well, then things are not funny anymore and he gets a little "cheaty".

[DavePelz4]

Maybe a stupid question, but did/could you have asked him about it once you got to the green? Is it possible he just made a mistake?

Oh we did, and it was 100% intentional. He gave us a bad yardage on purpose to mess with our game. He's the kind of player who's in a great mood--as long as he's winning. The trash talk flows like diarrhea of the mouth. But if the tables turn, and he isn't doing so well, then things are not funny anymore and he gets a little "cheaty".

With that being the case he is just rude and technically, subject to a penalty for intentionally giving you the wrong information. It's a sad commentary on him that he has to resort to such tactics to beat you and just says he has no confidence in his game. Beat him like a drum, often and hard. That's the best revenge.

[daughterscameron]

Maybe a stupid question, but did/could you have asked him about it once you got to the green? Is it possible he just made a mistake?

Oh we did, and it was 100% intentional. He gave us a bad yardage on purpose to mess with our game. He's the kind of player who's in a great mood--as long as he's winning. The trash talk flows like diarrhea of the mouth. But if the tables turn, and he isn't doing so well, then things are not funny anymore and he gets a little "cheaty".

"cheaty"??? Now is where i'd start to get pissed. It's one thing, giving the wrong
yardage, BUT CHEATING?? Something about a 7 iron to the shin, or a punch in the
sack was said a few posts back. I like those calls.