Tips="Championship Tees" ...not "MEN'S" tees, right?, Too many bad golfers playing from the tips? Options

[hack]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad you and your friends choose tees based on slope, not yardage so much. I wish more golfers would or could realize the benefits of slope ratings, they'd have more fun.

The last Golf Digest that had the Hot List in it had a pretty generalized guide for selecting the slope for the tees you should play based on your handicap. The breakdown is as follows:

Handicap / Slope
Plus / 146+
0-5 / 140-145
6-10 / 135-139
11-15 / 130-134
16-20 / 125-129
21-25 / 120-124
26-30 / 115-119
31-36 / 110-114
37+ / 109 or less

Seems to be a pretty fair...

This post has been edited by hack: Jun 11 2009, 12:06 AM

[Large David Hamm...]

Not feeling attacked at all...and thanks for the clarification. No worries.

I'm sorry I mentioned the speed/pace factor at all, it was only a tiny portion of my objection...I play muni's with rounds so slow, the pace that the people around you are keeping, is almost always irrelevant. Slow or fast play was a minor concern to me, it is it's own issue.

I agree that a shorter hitter who hits it straight is way better than a shorter hitter who doesn't, especially from the back tees...I was much more interested in why players on this forum thought the "back" tees had become the "men's" tees. I would say that if you play a "normal" sized golf course and never have anything other than hybrids and woods, with an occasional mid or short iron, into the greens, move up a tee! No?

There are a lot of short hitters, who are not straight hitters (handicap does matter to a degree, as it reflects the likelihood of your hitting a well-struck shot frequently), who happen to be men, and who play the back tees, who IMO, shouldn't... and I can only assume it is because they think those are the men's tees.

Since when are the back tees the "men's"?

[hbear]

The tips are black. I play them in the evenings when I play with a kid who is a Div 1 player. Only difference is one par 4 I hit 3W instead of 5W off the tee and the par 3's are 10yds. longer. Every other hole the blacks and blues are the same tees on the front. On the back a few are 10yds. longer but they are elevated more so the distance is the same. On the finishing par 5 I actually hit it longer off the blacks since they are only 5yds. back but 10ft. higher up.

Seems to be like that at all the courses that have champ. tees. The blacks are only really longer on the par 3's.

Odd as over here there are pretty big differences between the champ and "blue/silver" tees. At our course one of the par 5s tacks on 110 yards, about 15-20 yards on the par 3s and a about 15-30 yards on the par 4s. Might not seem like much but that's 1-3 club difference, and puts a bit more stress on a good tee shot. There is a pretty big difference between "not quite catching" a tee shot but still having 8I in....and doing the same but having a 5I in.
And most courses here are along those same lines.

'6500 yard guy' is my pet peeve. Scorecard yardage is a HORRIBLE indicator of how a course will play. How could you compare a 340 yard par 4 with a narrow landing area and shallow well protected green to a 420 yard downhill hole with a no trouble?

For most golfers slope is a MUCH better indicator than length (or even rating) of the right tee box. On our annual trip to Myrtle we always argued over which boxes to play. Many of the courses have up to 5 tee boxes with varying colors/names.

The first couple of years we foolishly tried to play to the 6500 yard or even worse (one tee from the tips) rule. The problem was there is a big of difference between a 126 and 136 slope course. Finally we got smart and started for a 'target slope' between 124-129. We found that gave us a more consistent challenge each day. And believe me, it was more fun playing a 6200 yard 126 slope course than trying to play the 6600 yard 136 yard course we used to gravitate to.

I also agree with above that ego comes into play when you have golfers of varying skills. Unfortunately it's more common for a higher handicap player to 'go along' and play more course than they want than for a stronger player to suck it up and play from a shorter tee for the day.

Length is a good place to start, then go hole by hole on the par 4s to get a sense of how "long" the course plays. If you see a lot of 420-430 yard par 4s and short par 3s and 5s....it's going to play a lot tougher than a couse with 360-380 yard par 4s and most of the length made up on the par 5s and 3s.
Slope and rating are also good indicators....I normally go on course rating as slope seems to be more an indicator for the "toughness" of a course for a higher handicapper....while rating seems to be better for the scratch/low capper.

I've seen courses with a 126 slope rating at 7100 yards....trust me if you aren't a longish hitter 7100 yards is a pretty good chunk of real estate. On that note I've also played courses at 6700 yards and 134 slope that didn't seem all that difficult to me.

This post has been edited by hbear: Jun 11 2009, 12:36 AM

[Pepperturbo]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad you and your friends choose tees based on slope, not yardage so much. I wish more golfers would or could realize the benefits of slope ratings, they'd have more fun.

The last Golf Digest that had the Hot List in it had a pretty generalized guide for selecting the slope for the tees you should play based on your handicap. The breakdown is as follows:

Handicap / Slope
Plus / 146+
0-5 / 140-145
6-10 / 135-139
11-15 / 130-134
16-20 / 125-129
21-25 / 120-124
26-30 / 115-119
31-36 / 110-114
37+ / 109 or less

Seems to be a pretty fair...

Great information, and I agree. I wonder how GD came up with this? Golfers with common sense are likely to adhere to similar choices; if only the one's that should use it did, then maybe pace of play would somewhat improve.

What perplexes me I have 20+ index good friends that should regularly play 120-124 range. When they do I can see they enjoy the round more, while I prefer 135-145 range... When I play with them on the 120-124 range I go brain dead, and done to often it derogatorily affects my index. When they play the course of my choosing I am bothered watching them struggle. Like me, they don't complain because of the camaraderie, and they don't slow play - still, it can be ugly to watch at times.

None of the holes are reachable for them in regulation. At times they have a look of desperation and frustration on their faces knowing their not breaking 100; as opposed to the easier courses their in the low 90's, and maybe a break to 80's because most holes are reachable in regulation.

Sorry for the blabber folks - but its a challenging subject I face every weekend.

This post has been edited by Pepperturbo: Jun 12 2009, 11:27 AM

[Pepperturbo]

I agree that a shorter hitter who hits it straight is way better than a shorter hitter who doesn't, especially from the back tees...I was much more interested in why players on this forum thought the "back" tees had become the "men's" tees. I would say that if you play a "normal" sized golf course and never have anything other than hybrids and woods, with an occasional mid or short iron, into the greens, move up a tee! No?

There are a lot of short hitters, who are not straight hitters (handicap does matter to a degree, as it reflects the likelihood of your hitting a well-struck shot frequently), who happen to be men, and who play the back tees, who IMO, shouldn't... and I can only assume it is because they think those are the men's tees.

Since when are the back tees the "men's"?

You're last question is a good one.

Could it be tee choice brings about a subconscious deeper question "do I have it?" or maybe its more tied into "David and Goliath" feelings that in normal every day life would never be considered due to consequences. It has to be something like that since the people that choose the "men's" tees, and equate them to the back tees don't have the game, seldom have the temperament and that brings into question their lack judgment by choosing the back tee.

[larrybud]

Hackers scoring 100 are not having fun on the golf course, or at least not near as much as they would have with some control over their golf ball.

LOL! Glad to know you can read their mood from here, rope!

They play once a week. They love going out with their buddies and talking trash, having a couple of beers. They couldn't care less what they shoot. Sometimes, (GASP), they even shoot in the HIGH 50's!!! OMG!!!

My Dad is 80, breaks 50 maybe 5 times a year on a 6000 yard muni. He couldn't be having more fun. Oh, and we play in under 4 hours with our foursome.

[larrybud]

you're right it was an arbitrary number that i picked out of the air, but i thought about it for a little... if you can only muster 200 yards off the tee, playing 6800-7200 yards is going to be a tough task... at least the 30-40 extra yards is going to make it a little more enjoyable even if both players hit it dead straight most of the time...

everyone is going to do what they want... just expect to have people behind you to be annoyed...

If I'm waiting for the group ahead of me, there's no reason anybody is getting annoyed.

And on the other hand, if I don't have to wait for the group in front of me, I'll be able to hit me 2nd shot and get out of the way of the people behind me faster.

[Large David Hamm...]

I agree with LarryBud about breaking 100. If it requires breaking 100 to "enjoy" golf, then until a couple years ago, I was becoming obsessed, buying gear, playing as often as possible, and apparently hating every minute of it.

I remember when my handicap dipped into the mid-20's (meaning I was finally & regularly, breaking 100) and thinking..."Boy I'm glad I can enjoy this now. I was eff-ing miserable!"

[jhy1281]

yeah, double bogey or a bogey when trying to break 100 was not miserable, compared to a double bogey on 17th hole that puts an end to a round in the 70s. ><

[roll - gybe]

What's a hack in this discussion. I think 15 was mentioned.
18 handicappers were banished to par 3 courses.

What is the average handicap? 15?
And what half of men players have handicaps (or less)?

So you are saying that fewer than a quarter of men can play the blues?
40% aren't even allowed to come to the course?

That's pretty silly.

And as far as going to a new course, sure I will look at yardage. Generally it is a pretty good way to go. If I have heard the place is rough and the tips are 6300 yards I will scratch my head. However, if we are talking modern, Fazio-type course, I'm probably gonna get started with my yardage...

And I think the recommendations are pretty silly...

Also, my friends who shoot 100 have a hell of a time out there. Not everyone is driven to succeed. I work with those guys, I don't have to hang out with them when it is Miller time.

[DefConOne]

the average golfer shoots 100.
the average golfer who keeps a handicap index is a 16.
the average golfer hits his drives 197 yards.

this is according to golf guru frank thomas and a study he did.

[BALLARD2]

i honestly don't know why courses put "the back tees" out on the weekends?

the average guy is not gonna go play behind the longest tees marked...

so put them out at the "2 ups",

most guys will go there and if you really want and know enough you can walk to the "backs"

it would help the courses get more rounds in and help speed up the pace!

at least i think it would

[Pepperturbo]

Yesterday I stood watching 4 mid-late 30's guys tee off in front of us from the 6800yd 139 sloped tees. You can't imagine how ish it looked. After the third hole it was clear 3 guys in that group shouldn't even be on that type of course, even the White tee's are 131. We waited for them to retee and hunt for balls on darn near every shot. I could hear one guy comment as he walked off the tee after putting 2 in the drink, doesn't seem that hard. Talk about poor judgement.

There's a part of me that understands wanting the Full Monte effect of Blue tee's because I like difficult challenges. But, for God sakes the one decent player in the group should have used some common sense. It wasn't so much the carry yardages at issue, it was they had absolutely NO directional control, and one guy just couldn't hit the ball. They slowed the whole field behind.

This post has been edited by Pepperturbo: Jun 14 2009, 11:09 AM

[Blues Golfer]

Yesterday I stood watching 4 mid-late 30's guys tee off in front of us from the 6800yd 139 sloped tees. You can't imagine how ish it looked. After the third hole it was clear 3 guys in that group shouldn't even be on that type of course, even the White tee's are 131. We waited for them to retee and hunt for balls on darn near every shot. I could hear one guy comment as he walked off the tee after putting 2 in the drink, doesn't seem that hard. Talk about poor judgement.

There's a part of me that understands wanting the Full Monte effect of Blue tee's because I like difficult challenges. But, for God sakes the one decent player in the group should have used some common sense. It wasn't so much the carry yardages at issue, it was they had absolutely NO directional control, and one guy just couldn't hit the ball. They slowed the whole field behind.

Stories like this are why I need to be medicated. This isn't golf, this is using the golf course as a driving range. This is the reason so many people, including myself for a time, finally just quit playing.

Five minutes on the driving range, and any professional worth his salary could simply say "the driving range is over there. Here is a free token for a bag of practice balls, we look forward to your business when you've had time to practice. I give free five minute lessons on the driving range every Wednesday for 90 minutes. You can use the practice areas all you want for just one range token. We don't charge much for personal lessons, have a nice day."

LET THEM GO somewhere else with their bruised egos. Like to a ++++ie bar or something. They can spend their 45 dollars one at a time.

I await the day that a course accepts the challenge of creating their own niche market that commands loyalty and a premium price from a dedicated clientele of GOLFER that would never play anywhere else because they love playing at a place where

- everyone they are ever paired up with can swing the club, chip, and putt with enough skill to play...by the rules.
- actually plays by the rules
- within 4.5 hours.
- practices once in awhile
- knows the basic etiquette, and even some not so basic.
- is not on the course to drink a 12 pack.

Notice that no where did I say "can keep up with the group ahead." Because if that was really important to the speed of play, there would be no speed of play problem in America. The problem is not whether someone is able to KEEP up, it's being able to SET the pace of play.

The only way a course can be sure that play is set at 4 hours, and stays that way, is by testing the competence of the golfers. By the time a marshal could remove someone for dragging down the pace, it would be too late.

One single hacker that tees off between 8 and 9 in the morning, that does not finish until 1:30 or 2:30, costs everyone who plays that day an enjoyable round. Is that fair to the 200 golfers that teed off later?

The fact that the couse even adopts that policy, means half the problem goes away all by itself. A few would fear the rejection and never try, the others would try once and then stomp off to somewhere else. A few would pay for a lesson just to see if they could pass, which means they probably would pass, they just need the confidence boost.