sandbaggers Options

[brnkbstr]

I just played in my alumni golf tourny and I can't believe the sandbagging that goes on at this thing.Your handicap is on an honor system and I think guys see this as a chance to look good.The winning team all went in with max handicaps of 24(men).They shot 53,56,57 and 63,the boos they got at the awards said it all.I couldn't believe the scores.Is this common at "honor" tourny's?

[shuttle1]

IMO

When it comes to sandbaggers there is no honor.

These guys should be banned from participating again and they won't if the folks running the tournament have any integrity.

[MtlJeff]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

[Mr.B]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

[OpusX20]

I just played in my alumni golf tourny and I can't believe the sandbagging that goes on at this thing.Your handicap is on an honor system and I think guys see this as a chance to look good.The winning team all went in with max handicaps of 24(men).They shot 53,56,57 and 63,the boos they got at the awards said it all.I couldn't believe the scores.Is this common at "honor" tourny's?

For an event like this, I would suggest using a one-day handicap scoring model like the Peoria System or something similar. Peoria is not perfect and it certainly adds an element of luck, but at least it gives everyone a chance.

[Ruleschamp]

If cheating offends you, avoid all college alumni, work place, charity, and, yes, even church tournaments that involve alleged "handicapping" particularly as it relates to the concept of scrambles. You'll see more sandbagging and outright cheating than you've ever seen in your life. I stopped playing in the those years ago. The only exception is if I can convince myself to put away my competitive nature and just realize that you're not gonna win because of the cheating and you're participating for other reasons such as raising money for charity, your school, etc.......

[Australian_Blade]

I hate handicap sanctioned tournys because of guys like this. Play them straight up for $1,000 a hole and see how confident they are with that.

They cheat and disrespect the game. Very upsetting.

[WildcatCoach]

Sandbagging is going to happen no matter what kind of tournament you play in.

Just this weekend we had our city open tournament. It is a 2-day tourney, played on 2 different courses. After everyone played course "A" on Saturday, they took the scores and flighted people accordingly. I was playing with a guy today who shot an 80 on Saturday, then went out and drank all night Saturday night (so much so that he sprained his ankle as he staggered home at 3 am this morning). This guy is sweating alcohol out of every pore (I know because I rode with him), and shoots 70 on a much tougher and longer course today. I was not a happy camper.

This is just part of tournament golf, unfortunately. We were even playing the 10% rule (which may be the reason this guys was lagging birdie putts the last couple of holes.) And this happened so much last year that we were about 35 people less in this year's tourney.

If anyone has a suggestion, I'd love to hear it. But it doesn't sound like this is only happening in my small town.

[Mainlinegolfer]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

The USGA handicap system is pretty damned impressive IF you take the time to understand its intent and methodology. Clueless, uninformed and dishonest people are horrible.
For the handicap system, read here: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System...andicap-Manual/

For some entertaining reading about sandbagging and the odds of shooting an "exceptional" score (Hint: it is statistically impossible for an "honest" handicap to shoot net scores of 53, 56, 57, and 63), see here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

[MtlJeff]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

The USGA handicap system is pretty damned impressive IF you take the time to understand its intent and methodology. Clueless, uninformed and dishonest people are horrible.
For the handicap system, read here: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System...andicap-Manual/

For some entertaining reading about sandbagging and the odds of shooting an "exceptional" score (Hint: it is statistically impossible for an "honest" handicap to shoot net scores of 53, 56, 57, and 63), see here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

i'm not sure if you're calling me clueless, but i maintain that it's easier for a higher handicap to make a par than for a low handicap to make a birdie. I know a lot of double digit handicaps that will make 7-10 pars in a round and then have a few blowup holes. This is OK in some tournaments, but a lot of handicap events are teams/best ball formats. Low handicap players very rarely win these events...i don't hate the system, but just saying that's the way it tends to work in competitions

[wolfpackblack]

If cheating offends you, avoid all college alumni, work place, charity, and, yes, even church tournaments that involve alleged "handicapping" particularly as it relates to the concept of scrambles. You'll see more sandbagging and outright cheating than you've ever seen in your life. I stopped playing in the those years ago. The only exception is if I can convince myself to put away my competitive nature and just realize that you're not gonna win because of the cheating and you're participating for other reasons such as raising money for charity, your school, etc.......

+1

Don't forget sorority and fraternity tournaments either...those are always absolutely crooked.

[raymo]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

The USGA handicap system is pretty damned impressive IF you take the time to understand its intent and methodology. Clueless, uninformed and dishonest people are horrible.
For the handicap system, read here: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System...andicap-Manual/

For some entertaining reading about sandbagging and the odds of shooting an "exceptional" score (Hint: it is statistically impossible for an "honest" handicap to shoot net scores of 53, 56, 57, and 63), see here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

I just attended the NCGA handicap seminar last weekend and they put up these pope of slope stats. It really seemed that the NCGA is working hard to stop the baggers but it brings up a few questions.

The guy that won the 2 day tourney I just played in is a 10 index and shot net 68 day 1 and net 64 today. I she a bagger? According to everything I have read and heard then he is. Statistically he should never but up these scores in back to back tourney rounds.

If everyone was "legit" what should the winning scores be? I have NEVER played in a net score tourney where the winner was even close to par. Always at least 4 or 5 under.

I don't want to accuse strangers or bagging but it seems I hardly ever shoot under my index (10.0).

[Mainlinegolfer]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

The USGA handicap system is pretty damned impressive IF you take the time to understand its intent and methodology. Clueless, uninformed and dishonest people are horrible.
For the handicap system, read here: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System...andicap-Manual/

For some entertaining reading about sandbagging and the odds of shooting an "exceptional" score (Hint: it is statistically impossible for an "honest" handicap to shoot net scores of 53, 56, 57, and 63), see here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

I'm not sure if you're calling me clueless, but i maintain that it's easier for a higher handicap to make a par than for a low handicap to make a birdie. I know a lot of double digit handicaps that will make 7-10 pars in a round and then have a few blowup holes. This is OK in some tournaments, but a lot of handicap events are teams/best ball formats. Low handicap players very rarely win these events...i don't hate the system, but just saying that's the way it tends to work in competitions

Most average golfers are uninformed (or clueless) about properly using the handicap systems and typically just have a visceral reaction to high handicappers winning net competitions. Alas, I also suffer from that feeling, but it doesn't make it true. The fact is, many golfers don't maintain accurate handicaps, intentionally or unintentionally, and, as I've written before, "garbage in, garbage out". It's not the system, it's the people.

No bogey golfer makes 18 bogies in a round; they all make some pars, maybe a birdie, and have a few "blow up holes". That's the nature of the game. It always amuses me that golfers tell their pro that "they are hitting the ball great, they are just inconsistent", as if that is unique and insightful. The nature of the game is being inconsistent, certainly for the typical amateur hack. Consistency is the definition of a really good player.

As I've also posted before, the USGA handicap system makes an adjustment for "excellence" for the better golfer (multiplies by .96) but also adds "Slope" to a "Course Rating" so a handicap index maintained at a easier course is equated with a handicap at a more a difficult course, i.e. the bogey golfer (sloope) needs even more help on a difficult course than a scratch golfer (course rating).

As I've also posted before, As far as you playing team or better ball formats, the handicap system provides for adjusting handicaps in these formats for teams of varying handicaps by, say, multiplying by 90%.

[Mainlinegolfer]

the handicap system is both great and horrible, it's great because you can have tournaments where all skills levels compete...but there are always people who would rather win than play fair (which it sounds like in this case), and it's also much easier for a high handicap player to make pars than a low capper to make birdies. I recently lost a match with a friend of mine (both low handicaps) to a pair of 15-20's who got a shot on each hole and started -10 through 11 holes...we had no chance even at our best

handicap tournaments are never perfect

I think the handicap system is just horrible..... jmo though

The USGA handicap system is pretty damned impressive IF you take the time to understand its intent and methodology. Clueless, uninformed and dishonest people are horrible.
For the handicap system, read here: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System...andicap-Manual/

For some entertaining reading about sandbagging and the odds of shooting an "exceptional" score (Hint: it is statistically impossible for an "honest" handicap to shoot net scores of 53, 56, 57, and 63), see here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html

I just attended the NCGA handicap seminar last weekend and they put up these pope of slope stats. It really seemed that the NCGA is working hard to stop the baggers but it brings up a few questions.

The guy that won the 2 day tourney I just played in is a 10 index and shot net 68 day 1 and net 64 today. I she a bagger? According to everything I have read and heard then he is. Statistically he should never but up these scores in back to back tourney rounds.

If everyone was "legit" what should the winning scores be? I have NEVER played in a net score tourney where the winner was even close to par. Always at least 4 or 5 under.

I don't want to accuse strangers or bagging but it seems I hardly ever shoot under my index (10.0).

As the USGA and Pope of Slope websites indicate, IF handicaps are accurate, you should only expect to shoot your handicap 1 out of 5 times. Check out the odds of beating your handicap by 4 or 5 strokes; it's not impossible, just improbable (IF handicaps are accurate).

Sandbagging in tournaments is why golf associations use the Knuth system (Dean Knuth, the developer of the USGA handicap and course rating system, aka "The Pope of Slope"), to monitor "Exceptional Tournament Scores" to identify possible sandbaggers and make adjustments to handicap indexes (the "r" sometimes noted on someone's handicap index).

This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 8 2009, 06:31 AM

[lskoncepts]

I have to agree that sandbagging will ruin a great tournament. Case in point. We had our local Knox County Amateur tournament this past weekend. In the last flight there was a guy that shot 88 the first day and shot 78 the next. I had a friend play golf with him and he said he didn't even try the first day and went low the second day. You can view the results of the tournament here:

http://golfnewsoftennessee.com/phpBB/viewt...0d3454d4822ddaa

You can see in the third flight that someone was 10 shots better than the first day. I mean, come on! When this thing happens the people that don't normally play in stroke play events like this they won't play again. It aggravates me to no end!

Of course, I was at the top of the second flight with a 79 the first day. I reversed sand bagged and shot a 92 the second day. Took a 12 on one hole and my day was over. Sheesh!

[larrybud]

I just played in my alumni golf tourny and I can't believe the sandbagging that goes on at this thing.Your handicap is on an honor system and I think guys see this as a chance to look good.The winning team all went in with max handicaps of 24(men).They shot 53,56,57 and 63,the boos they got at the awards said it all.I couldn't believe the scores.Is this common at "honor" tourny's?

So you're saying a 24 shot a gross of 77?

They should have been DQed. I've played in tournies where the "winner" was DQed because of absurdly low net scores.

[Hawaiianhacker]

i've noticed a lot of charity tournaments now will have a representative from the top 10 or top 15 places come up after their scores are announced and then they will all pull random tickets to determine their prize. so even if you cheat, err sandbag, and end up being first, that does not mean you will win the first place prize.

in fact, one of the charity tournaments i participate in will give top prize honors to the team that comes in at the charity's anniversary number. for example, if it's the charity's 20th anniversary, they will award the 20th place team the top prize and all the other top finishers get awarded the rest of the prizes.

[Yardbeatles]

I truley believe that in a lot of instances there are tow things going on.

First, Many Mid-High handicappers have no idea what the equitable strokes rules for thier everyday rounds are... much less use them for equity.

Here's the chart:

Equitable Stroke Control Chart

Course Handicap Maximum Score
0-9 Double Bogey
10-19 7
20-29 8
30-39 9
40 or more 10

This simply means that a 18 hdcp can never post a score with anything on his card over a seven. so if he shoots a 92 but had a 9 on a par five, it must post as a 90. Most dont even know, much less follow this rule.

Secondly, they simply don't post ALL scores. some say that a high round isn't going to count anyway so don't post it (However those "Buffer" rounds are what keep you hdcp current and accurate). Or they don't post the really low round they shoot every now and then. This really changes your handicap and adjusts it to show that your capable of shooting that type of round... they just don't come out of nowhere at tournament time. The NCGA is doing a better job of freezing people who have "anomalies" in tournaments recently. We make fun of one guy at our club because it's like he's on the NCGA christmas card list. He gets frozen like every year!

[Mainlinegolfer]

I truley believe that in a lot of instances there are tow things going on.

First, Many Mid-High handicappers have no idea what the equitable strokes rules for thier everyday rounds are... much less use them for equity.
Here's the chart:

Equitable Stroke Control Chart
Course Handicap Maximum Score
0-9 Double Bogey
10-19 7
20-29 8
30-39 9
40 or more 10

This simply means that a 18 hdcp can never post a score with anything on his card over a seven. so if he shoots a 92 but had a 9 on a par five, it must post as a 90. Most dont even know, much less follow this rule.

Secondly, they simply don't post ALL scores. some say that a high round isn't going to count anyway so don't post it (However those "Buffer" rounds are what keep you hdcp current and accurate). Or they don't post the really low round they shoot every now and then. This really changes your handicap and adjusts it to show that your capable of shooting that type of round... they just don't come out of nowhere at tournament time. The NCGA is doing a better job of freezing people who have "anomalies" in tournaments recently. We make fun of one guy at our club because it's like he's on the NCGA christmas card list. He gets frozen like every year!

Read my link(s) to articles about sandbagging in my post #9. Entertaining and infuriating.

[kekoa]

Almost impossible to rid the tournament of any handicapped tournament play.I think the Pasadena City is one of the best tournaments to play in simply because they are so damn strict on handicapped flights. If they see you shoot well below your stated index, one of the tournament directors will likely call you out on it and possibly watch you for a few holes. They also know that some guys just may have a career round in one of their tournaments, but you have to prove it.

[Speedly]

i've noticed a lot of charity tournaments now will have a representative from the top 10 or top 15 places come up after their scores are announced and then they will all pull random tickets to determine their prize. so even if you cheat, err sandbag, and end up being first, that does not mean you will win the first place prize.

in fact, one of the charity tournaments i participate in will give top prize honors to the team that comes in at the charity's anniversary number. for example, if it's the charity's 20th anniversary, they will award the 20th place team the top prize and all the other top finishers get awarded the rest of the prizes.

I like this idea. Not only does it mix things up, but it keeps baggers from reaping the benefits of their cheating ways.

I've never actually been in a real tournament, but it would be sad if I were to bag - my legitimate handicap is 32. :-(

[5under]

Sandbagging is going to happen no matter what kind of tournament you play in.

Just this weekend we had our city open tournament. It is a 2-day tourney, played on 2 different courses. After everyone played course "A" on Saturday, they took the scores and flighted people accordingly. I was playing with a guy today who shot an 80 on Saturday, then went out and drank all night Saturday night (so much so that he sprained his ankle as he staggered home at 3 am this morning). This guy is sweating alcohol out of every pore (I know because I rode with him), and shoots 70 on a much tougher and longer course today. I was not a happy camper.

This is just part of tournament golf, unfortunately. We were even playing the 10% rule (which may be the reason this guys was lagging birdie putts the last couple of holes.) And this happened so much last year that we were about 35 people less in this year's tourney.

If anyone has a suggestion, I'd love to hear it. But it doesn't sound like this is only happening in my small town.

My suggestion is to get this guy to play on the pro tour and be his caddy.

[Bobcat 2]

Just completed our Member Guest which is really nothing more then a den of thieves in the handicapped flights. One guy, a 10 hcp.. parred all the holes he stroked on all five matches. Another 6 shot 34, another 15 was under 40 all matches, etc. In a hcp tournament, almost anywhere, the winners are easily 5 or more strokes under par. If you are doing well to shoot your handicap, you have no chance. Its just a part of the culture and it seems everyone is a ringer or has a ringer for a partner, so no one complains when someone out cheats them to win. They will just find a "better" partner next time.