Equitable Score Control (ESC), Does everyone know about this? Options

[aminian.1]

I've been playing golf for about 12 years now, and I just learned about equitable score control (ESC). Does everyone on here use ESC when calculating their handicaps? Is anybody else in the dark about ESC like I was? In case you are, here's some info:


http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/whatisesc.htm


This can have a MAJOR impact on your handicap.

[slim16er]

Yes - when you sign up to keep an official handicap this is in the info or rules for keeping a cap.

This definitely has an impact. the example in your link puts it perfectly -

"For example, on that one disaster hole you might have taken 14 strokes......Taking the "14" might throw your handicap index out of whack. And remember, the handicap index is not meant to reflect your average score, it's meant to reflect your best potential."

[dpb5031]

ESC is a critical component of the handicapping system. Failing to use ESC when entering scores will result in a handicap that is not valid.

That said, my personal thoughts are that the handicap system, even with equitable stroke control, is imperfect as it stands and subject to manipulation by those inclined to do so. It seems that there are predominantly two types, players with vanity handicaps who can't play to them, and sandbaggers who keep their handicap at a level that always gives them an edge when playing in net competitions or for wagers.

This post has been edited by dpb5031: Apr 23 2009, 09:45 AM

[dlygrisse]

Yeah, I had a quad the other day and my score was an 81, adjusted my score was a 79. If you are the type of player that has several blow up holes a round it can affect your handi a lot. IMO this is fair especially if you are playing someone in a match play situation. When applying strokes to certain holes and skins are involved the "good" player, the guy who can make birdies, but also double and triples, would have a huge advantage without ESC.

[finalist]

I think where some people still get confused is how different clubs handle this. For mine I do it myself so the score that I enter into the computer counts the ESC. I also gather that some other people's clubs have them submit the actual score card with all strokes taken. Then the club officer calculates ESC for them. Then posts that ESC for them. confused?

[larrybud]

I've been playing golf for about 12 years now, and I just learned about equitable score control (ESC). Does everyone on here use ESC when calculating their handicaps? Is anybody else in the dark about ESC like I was? In case you are, here's some info:

http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/whatisesc.htm

This can have a MAJOR impact on your handicap.

You've had an official USGA cap for 12 years without knowing about ESC?

No wonder I get killed in net events.

[TheBUNKY]

How many times can you take advantage of "taking the maximum" per round though? A buddy of mine swears by ESC. I am just now finding out about it as I thought it was just a local rule enacted by our local men's league.

Here is the USGA's stance on it. http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/unde...es/esctest.html

So my question remains, how many times can you mark down the maximum strokes you can take per your handicap per round? If you are a 10-19, that maximum score is 7. Can I post four scores of 7 per round if I blow up on four holes, say all our par 3s?

[cave]

Haven't you ever seen a partner shoot 79 and record a 77 because he can't take triples being sub-10?

It's pretty standard knowledge. But life is for learning so no biggy you missed out on that item.

[HackerD]

BTW, ESC = Equitable Stroke Control

[Mainlinegolfer]

As has been posted many times before, the USGA website and published booklets provide the definitive source for questions about rules, handicap indexes, course maintenance, etiquette and many other topics. There is simply no reason to speculate or ask your uninformed buddies (or About.com).

USGA handicap system - http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html
Rules - http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules.html

[Mainlinegolfer]

By the way, the man who developed the USGA's handicap index and course rating/slope systems, Dean Knuth, has his own website, "The Pope of Slope" that discusses handicapping, and sandbagging (the bane of golf), and reasons why scores are not turned in:
http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html


There is also an interesting chart about the probabilities of playing better than an (honest, accurate) handicap, i.e. an "Exceptional Tournament Score".
http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html


This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 4 2009, 06:31 AM

[LucF]

Does anybody know if there is any parental link between Dean Knuth of the slope system and Donald E. Knuth, author of "The art of computer programming", a classic in the field? Both seem to revel in numbers.

[daughterscameron]

I've been playing golf for about 12 years now, and I just learned about equitable score control (ESC). Does everyone on here use ESC when calculating their handicaps? Is anybody else in the dark about ESC like I was? In case you are, here's some info:

http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/whatisesc.htm

This can have a MAJOR impact on your handicap.

You've had an official USGA cap for 12 years without knowing about ESC?

No wonder I get killed in net events.

That's what I was thinking.

[atlanta golfer]

My impression is that the original poster may not have an actual USGA handicap index, since he talks about "calculating" his handicap. You don't "calculate" a handicap, you simply post your scores after each round, after first applying ESC. The USGA applies the appropriate formulas and updates your handicap index once per month, or twice, depending on the state association you are in. Although the formulas are not difficult and it certainly is possible for any individual to figure out their handicap index for themselves.

As for the question about ESC, it is mind numbing to me, to think that anyone is not aware of this. Especially after 12 years. Although I have seen some pretty experienced golfers apply it incorrectly - for example, using triple bogie max versus 7.

[arkstorm]

At my home course when you enter your score into the computer it prompts you to, "Enter Your ESC Score" so how you wouldn't know about ESC after 12 years is truly beyond me.

There are also a lot of people that think their handicap is their average score, so go figure?!?

[Mainlinegolfer]

At my home course when you enter your score into the computer it prompts you to, "Enter Your ESC Score" so how you wouldn't know about ESC after 12 years is truly beyond me.

There are also a lot of people that think their handicap is their average score, so go figure?!?

The posting procedures vary a little from club to club; golf association to golf association, however. As mentioned, some just turn in scorecards; some post themselves after making ESC adjustments; and some do both.

Not only do many golfers not understand the USGA handicap guidelines and objectives, many "experienced" golfers don't even know how to correctly fix a ball mark on the green. While the rules of golf and USGA handicapping policies may be arcane and complex, there is no reason to speculate such that the "blind lead the blind". It's usually not a matter for speculation or opinion, the rules and the handicap methodology are spelled out in detail in USGA handbooks and on its website. Follow the rules or not, it's up to you. But it's chaos and unfair to compete using "handicaps" calculated in different ways.

There was a great deal of sophisticated statistical analysis that led to the USGA handicap system, with the objective being to permit players of different abilities to fairly play against each other-- men and women; using different tees; at courses of varying difficulty; factoring in tournament scores to catch sandbaggers; giving handicap committees discretion to make adjustments; and accommodating different tournament formats (1 day and 4 day; fourball and foursomes; match and stroke; and even scrambles!). Calculating an "average" score was not the objective; hence, a handicap system designed to measure playing "potential". Finally, the handicap index is ultimately only effective if everyone followings the same rules; otherwise "garbage in, garbage out".

Forged vs. cast; Tiger vs. Phil; the benefits of "Puring", spine and flowing. Those subjects are nothing when compared to the ranting sandbagging causes, whether intentional or unintentional. I have almost given up on competitive golf-- at a 6-7 handicap, I can't compete at scratch and the net tournaments always seem to won by someone whose handicap, ahem, could use some scrutiny.

This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 4 2009, 10:27 AM

[TheBUNKY]

That is the main problem with the logic. Its the assumption that everyone is honest and makes the handicap process work.

Our local club dictates that you must play the ball down. Take no mulligans. Hit only one from the first tee and hole every putt. No gimmies.

If you can't do that you cannot and should not turn in a scorecard for posting.

On the other hand, how can you make sure someone isn't intentionally trying to miss the 5 footer or hit it ob to pad their handicap index?

Its a game of honor and honesty and should be played as such.

[InTheHole]

How many times can you take advantage of "taking the maximum" per round though? A buddy of mine swears by ESC. I am just now finding out about it as I thought it was just a local rule enacted by our local men's league.

Here is the USGA's stance on it. http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/unde...es/esctest.html

So my question remains, how many times can you mark down the maximum strokes you can take per your handicap per round? If you are a 10-19, that maximum score is 7. Can I post four scores of 7 per round if I blow up on four holes, say all our par 3s?

I'm not sure your question and the link you provided are the same thing.... If I understand your question, you can apply ESC on every hole you play in a round. Of course, I have a rule- if I am applying ESC on every hole, by the 9th or 10th hole, I'm pretty much done for the day.

The essence of the link you provided is this: "However, opinions were expressed to the USGA by golfers, golf clubs and golf association that it didn't seem right that the single-digit Course Handicap player was not able to post a double bogey on a par-5 but was permitted to post a triple bogey on a par-3."

In the end, they left the handicap rules the way they were because after testing, they were able to prove it had no real effect on handicaps.

But I don't think it talks to how many times you can apply ESC in a round. So the answer to your question is yes, you can post 4 7's in a round.

[Ronzo]

BTW, ESC = Equitable Stroke Control

ESC is the Obama administration's plan to redistribute strokes. It must be fought against with all the force we can muster.

[Buzzkill]

Yes everyone should know about E.S.C. - it's goes hand in hand with the Handicap program.

[tjy355]

Something that needs to be understood, you don't apply ESC during the round. You mark your ACTUAL SCORE on every hole.

If you are in a tournament, you submit the scorecard that has your ACTUAL SCORE.

If you are playing a match with your buddies, you settle the bets using the ACTUAL SCORE.

When you go to work on Monday morning and someone asks what you shot, you tell them your ACTUAL SCORE.

After the round is over and you go to the posting sheet or computer at the club or at home to post the score into the handicap system, then you apply ESC and post the ADJUSTED SCORE. This is the only time you should be thinking about ESC and that is the only time the ADJUSTED SCORE should be considered.

This post has been edited by tjy355: Jun 4 2009, 06:11 PM

[golf_bhoy]

Something that needs to be understood, you don't apply ESC during the round. You mark your ACTUAL SCORE on every hole.

If you are in a tournament, you submit the scorecard that has your ACTUAL SCORE.

If you are playing a match with your buddies, you settle the bets using the ACTUAL SCORE.

When you go to work on Monday morning and someone asks what you shot, you tell them your ACTUAL SCORE.

After the round is over and you go to the posting sheet or computer at the club or at home to post the score into the handicap system, then you apply ESC and post the ADJUSTED SCORE. This is the only time you should be thinking about ESC and that is the only time the ADJUSTED SCORE should be considered.

This post is worth reading twice and remembering.

[Mainlinegolfer]

Something that needs to be understood, you don't apply ESC during the round. You mark your ACTUAL SCORE on every hole.

If you are in a tournament, you submit the scorecard that has your ACTUAL SCORE.

If you are playing a match with your buddies, you settle the bets using the ACTUAL SCORE.

When you go to work on Monday morning and someone asks what you shot, you tell them your ACTUAL SCORE.

After the round is over and you go to the posting sheet or computer at the club or at home to post the score into the handicap system, then you apply ESC and post the ADJUSTED SCORE. This is the only time you should be thinking about ESC and that is the only time the ADJUSTED SCORE should be considered.

This post is worth reading twice and remembering.

I would make an additional plea to neophyte golfers (and others). If you are playing match play or a better-ball match, and a hole or putt is conceded (or you are out of the hole and your partner's score is the one that will count), PICK UP! The handicap methodology says to put down the score you most like would have made -- you don't actually have to hole out if you've won the hole or it's only your partner's score that will count in the better-ball.

If your opponent concedes a 1 foot putt, add one more stroke; if he concedes the hole and you have a 25 foot putt, add two more strokes for handicap purposes because it's likely you would 2-putt. And, if you lie 8 in the fairway after 2 OBs and can reasonably estimate that you can hit the green and two putt, take an 11, use ESC for your handicap max score, and move on. We all do it when have a disaster, have lost the hole, or our own score no longer matters in the better-ball match. It will speed up play and everyone will appreciate it.

[Justmuckit]

So to clarify:

If I had never established a handicap, and decided next week to start - I could use the maximum allowable handicap for men of 36.4 - then use that to determine my course handicap, which would in turn establish an ESC maximum.

Correct?

[Laser]

Yes

[RichB]

As for the question about ESC, it is mind numbing to me, to think that anyone is not aware of this. Especially after 12 years. Although I have seen some pretty experienced golfers apply it incorrectly - for example, using triple bogie max versus 7.

Well, it depends on how *experienced*.
ESC rules have changed since I started playing in the 70's.
So, maybe they are unaware that the rules changed....years ago.

Triple bogey WAS an ESC score when I started. All ESC scores were strokes over par
for the hole (which, by the way, I think is fairer), not the specific number they are now.

And, no, that excuse is not to say that the players mentioned in the quote just
don't know what their doing.

Oh, how many can you take....
you can post 18 ESC max scores, if that was your round.
Enough rounds like this, and your handicap will go up...
probably to a point where your ESC max will go up too.

Another oh....everything mentioned in this thread should have been explained to
every player by the handicap committee when the process to get that handicap began.

[Sawgrass]

Another thing to watch out for is the fact that your ESC max is determined by your handicap that day on a particular course from the specific tee you played. You could be a 16,2 index and play from the back tees on a tough course, making your course handicap 20 in that situation which brings your max up to 8 instead of the typical 7 for a "16" handicap.

If some people don't even know about ESC, I wonder how many take the care required as described above? You actually have to use a chart or go to the USGA's website to calculate your course handicap, and I suspect there aren't too many people doing that!

[dpb5031]

As for the question about ESC, it is mind numbing to me, to think that anyone is not aware of this. Especially after 12 years. Although I have seen some pretty experienced golfers apply it incorrectly - for example, using triple bogie max versus 7.

Triple bogey WAS an ESC score when I started. All ESC scores were strokes over par
for the hole (which, by the way, I think is fairer), not the specific number they are now.

I don't like the fact that with ESC, players with handicaps between 10 and 19 can post a quadruple bogie 7 on par 3 holes. This is an open invitation for crafty sandbaggers to easily pad their handicap.

[InTheHole]

Another oh....everything mentioned in this thread should have been explained to
every player by the handicap committee when the process to get that handicap began.

What?

Me: "I'd like to sign up for the handicap service."

Guy behind the counter (GBC): "$30. How would you like to pay for that?"

Me: "Mastercard."

GBC: "Have you had a handicap before?"

Me: "No."

GBC: "OK, I'll set you up in the computer. [After setup.] OK, click here and here, find your name, course, and enter your score."

Me: "Cool. Thanks."

GBC: "No problem. Have a nice day. By the way, you can also enter your scored on the GHIN web site- there's a flyer up on the bulletin board explaining how to do it."

Me: "Great! Thanks for all your help."


Where was the explanation of ESC in that conversation? I'm not trying to be flippant... I just think it is now encumbant upon the golfer to read the rules. New or inexperienced golfers (like myself) should spend a good amount of time on the USGA web site. No one is gonna explain it to you in most cases. In fact, at the risk of the GolfWRX gods mashing me with a 5 iron, new golfers (or those who haven't read the rules in awhile) should spend more time there then here. We'd all benefit.

I tripped across ESC when I was brand new and knew I wanted to eventually establish a handicap. I started reading, and reading, and reading- no one explained anything to me. Once I got proficient enough, I asked a few questions here to get the holes filled in.

[Mainlinegolfer]

Another oh....everything mentioned in this thread should have been explained to
every player by the handicap committee when the process to get that handicap began.

Where was the explanation of ESC in that conversation? I'm not trying to be flippant... I just think it is now encumbant upon the golfer to read the rules. New or inexperienced golfers (like myself) should spend a good amount of time on the USGA web site. No one is gonna explain it to you in most cases. In fact, at the risk of the GolfWRX gods mashing me with a 5 iron, new golfers (or those who haven't read the rules in awhile) should spend more time there then here. We'd all benefit.

I tripped across ESC when I was brand new and knew I wanted to eventually establish a handicap. I started reading, and reading, and reading- no one explained anything to me. Once I got proficient enough, I asked a few questions here to get the holes filled in.

Yep, AND how to repair a ball mark on the green AND how to fix a divot (replace or fill with soil mix?) AND how to enter/exit a bunker AND where to stand when someone is hitting AND where to park a cart AND....

But it's still relatively easy for beginners; they're still receptive and malleable. Now I'd like to know how the heck to tell a guy who has been playing golf for 25 years and is a 5 handicap that he STILL doesn't know how to fix a ball mark properly AND maintain a handicap AND....

The USGA website? Fantastic idea (among other sources) for getting info on rules, handicaps, course maintenance and etiquette. MUCH better than the blind leading the blind and the dissemination of misinformation on Internet golf websites. Please give opinions (hopefully informed) about equipment you like (TM good; Nike sucks; forged blades good; white tees are the best), but when it comes to facts about the rules of golf or the USGA handicap system, if you don't KNOW, don't speculate or guess, look it up so you can provide a definitive answer or provide a link to the USGA website.

[RichB]

Another oh....everything mentioned in this thread should have been explained to
every player by the handicap committee when the process to get that handicap began.

(conversation snipped for bandwith)
Where was the explanation of ESC in that conversation? I'm not trying to be flippant... I just think it is now encumbant upon the golfer to read the rules. New or inexperienced golfers (like myself) should spend a good amount of time on the USGA web site. No one is gonna explain it to you in most cases. In fact, at the risk of the GolfWRX gods mashing me with a 5 iron, new golfers (or those who haven't read the rules in awhile) should spend more time there then here. We'd all benefit.

Agree with you, and commend you for doing, yes, what all golfers *should* do.
I hadn't thought of the store/web based off course handicaps. I suppose it would be no
different at many(?) local courses that sell the service. The problem here is not with
the golfer, but with the system. To me, this is a USGA problem. The USGA should mandate
of ALL who have been approved to provide USGA handicaps, to provide this pertinent info
to all *buyers* when they are entered into the system. Could be done with one of
those pamphlets that the USGA likes so much, with info on page 1 where to get
more help, if needed.

And then, how does the USGA go about enforcing this requirement?
For all I know, they already mandate it.

For the situation you described, I know it happens, I just don't know why the USGA
allowed for this type of handicap availability. I'm not trying to deny anyone who wants
a handicap (mine is from an off-course club, as well), but where is the peer review?

I guess my fear, if that's the correct term, is one day finding some handicapped
event, and the organizers not allowing some or any off-course handicaps as being
valid, and refusing entry to that golfer. A bit extreme, but stranger things have happened.

Seems something should be done, just not sure what.

As for being flippant...absolutely no worries...I never read anything of the sort into
your comments.

Oh, and (re-)reading the rules..spot on. Too few have a clue about the rules.
If you're really interested, I'd also suggest the *Decisions on the Rules of Golf*.
Good details, with real world examples. (available on the USGA site).
Some of my preferred reading over the non-playable winter months, just to keep sharp.

[Mainlinegolfer]

Another oh....everything mentioned in this thread should have been explained to
every player by the handicap committee when the process to get that handicap began.

(conversation snipped for bandwith)
Where was the explanation of ESC in that conversation? I'm not trying to be flippant... I just think it is now encumbant upon the golfer to read the rules. New or inexperienced golfers (like myself) should spend a good amount of time on the USGA web site. No one is gonna explain it to you in most cases. In fact, at the risk of the GolfWRX gods mashing me with a 5 iron, new golfers (or those who haven't read the rules in awhile) should spend more time there then here. We'd all benefit.

Agree with you, and commend you for doing, yes, what all golfers *should* do.
I hadn't thought of the store/web based off course handicaps. I suppose it would be no
different at many(?) local courses that sell the service. The problem here is not with
the golfer, but with the system. To me, this is a USGA problem. The USGA should mandate
of ALL who have been approved to provide USGA handicaps, to provide this pertinent info
to all *buyers* when they are entered into the system. Could be done with one of
those pamphlets that the USGA likes so much, with info on page 1 where to get
more help, if needed.

And then, how does the USGA go about enforcing this requirement?
For all I know, they already mandate it.

For the situation you described, I know it happens, I just don't know why the USGA
allowed for this type of handicap availability. I'm not trying to deny anyone who wants
a handicap (mine is from an off-course club, as well), but where is the peer review?

I guess my fear, if that's the correct term, is one day finding some handicapped
event, and the organizers not allowing some or any off-course handicaps as being
valid, and refusing entry to that golfer. A bit extreme, but stranger things have happened.

Seems something should be done, just not sure what.

As for being flippant...absolutely no worries...I never read anything of the sort into
your comments.

Oh, and (re-)reading the rules..spot on. Too few have a clue about the rules.
If you're really interested, I'd also suggest the *Decisions on the Rules of Golf*.
Good details, with real world examples. (available on the USGA site).
Some of my preferred reading over the non-playable winter months, just to keep sharp.

It's OK for a golf club to be "off-course"-- see USGA handicap manual-- if the "club" follows the USGA handicap procedures.

However, if the USGA handicap system is not used, I would bloody well hope that a tournament committee in a net (handicapped) event would not permit using handicaps that are not derived from the USGA licensed system. I kow everyone does not have a handicap and there are Stableford and Callaway scoring formats, but it's hard enough to create a level playing field and discourage sandbagging without phony, made-up, arbitrary, handicaps being used. The calculations are only part of the USGA handicap methodology. I don't care (too much) if someone doesn't follow the rules of golf or handicapping, I just don't want to compete against them.

This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 8 2009, 06:53 AM

[RichB]

It's OK for a golf club to be "off-course"-- see USGA handicap manual-- if the "club" follows the USGA handicap procedures.

Fully aware...as I said, I have one.
The problem we were discussing, and it seems more prevalent from some
of the off-course clubs, is clubs that DON'T follow USGA procedures.
The biggest questions being: How does the USGA police these clubs, if they do...
and how do the clubs (in question) do peer review,
which, as you know, is a major facet of the USGA handicap system.

[Mainlinegolfer]

It's OK for a golf club to be "off-course"-- see USGA handicap manual-- if the "club" follows the USGA handicap procedures.

Fully aware...as I said, I have one.
The problem we were discussing, and it seems more prevalent from some
of the off-course clubs, is clubs that DON'T follow USGA procedures.
The biggest questions being: How does the USGA police these clubs, if they do...
and how do the clubs (in question) do peer review,
which, as you know, is a major facet of the USGA handicap system.

Quote
The USGA Handicap System Licensing Program for Clubs is a requirement for all clubs in the United States wishing to utilize the USGA Handicap System™. If a club is a member club of the authorized golf association in its area, and a member club is considered as a club that uses the authorized golf association's handicap computation service, then it must sign an agreement with the authorized golf association. Any independent golf club that is not part of an authorized golf association and wishes to utilize any aspect of the USGA Handicap System must be licensed directly through the USGA®. To review the licensing policies or to begin the licensing process now, see the links below:

Golf Club Audit Program
The USGA has initiated an audit program for golf clubs to ensure the integrity of the USGA Handicap System is being maintained. The USGA randomly selects licensed golf clubs to complete the audit program and to provide evidence that they are using the USGA's formulas and service marks correctly in connection with the USGA Handicap System. All licensed golf clubs are subjected to being audited by the USGA, regardless of whether there is a compliance item in question or not.
Unquote

Info re a "club" is on the USGA's website, here:
http://www.usga.org/handicapping/club_lice...lf-Association/

The duties and responsibilities of the Handicap Committee are here ("Peer Review" is defined as well): http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14385

It seems to me, as with the rules in general, some want or need to have an "official" USGA handicap (because they play in tournaments where it matters); some don't.

This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 9 2009, 07:53 AM

[RichB]

Mainlinegolfer....

You are responding to me, quoting rules, I already know.
Obviously I have not been clear enough with my comments, and have confused you.

My comments were in response to this scenario posted by InTheHole:

What?

Me: "I'd like to sign up for the handicap service."

Guy behind the counter (GBC): "$30. How would you like to pay for that?"

Me: "Mastercard."

GBC: "Have you had a handicap before?"

Me: "No."

GBC: "OK, I'll set you up in the computer. [After setup.] OK, click here and here, find your name, course, and enter your score."

Me: "Cool. Thanks."

GBC: "No problem. Have a nice day. By the way, you can also enter your scored on the GHIN web site- there's a flyer up on the bulletin board explaining how to do it."

Me: "Great! Thanks for all your help."

This IS an OFFICIAL USGA handicap (service) that was purchased.

My response was to THIS scenario, and how I do not believe that this *licensed golf club*
and others, many like them, are NOT following the guidelines and RULES of the USGA,
and the problems that not following those rules generate, and what some ramifications
*might* be.

[Mainlinegolfer]

Mainlinegolfer....

You are responding to me, quoting rules, I already know.
Obviously I have not been clear enough with my comments, and have confused you.

My comments were in response to this scenario posted by InTheHole:

What?

Me: "I'd like to sign up for the handicap service."
Guy behind the counter (GBC): "$30. How would you like to pay for that?"
Me: "Mastercard."
GBC: "Have you had a handicap before?"
Me: "No."
GBC: "OK, I'll set you up in the computer. [After setup.] OK, click here and here, find your name, course, and enter your score."
Me: "Cool. Thanks."
GBC: "No problem. Have a nice day. By the way, you can also enter your scored on the GHIN web site- there's a flyer up on the bulletin board explaining how to do it."
Me: "Great! Thanks for all your help."

This IS an OFFICIAL USGA handicap (service) that was purchased.

My response was to THIS scenario, and how I do not believe that this *licensed golf club*
and others, many like them, are NOT following the guidelines and RULES of the USGA,
and the problems that not following those rules generate, and what some ramifications
*might* be.

I was not confused before but perhaps I misunderstood your questions in my haste to be helpful. I'm sorry if I did, but don't patronize me.

First, a small correction, golf ASSOCIATIONS are licensed by the USGA, not clubs. So, the question is whether the club (on- or off-course) is member of an association licensed by the USGA. The use of GHIN is also licensed by the USGA and would be a good indication that the club is a member of a licensed golf association (although, incidentally, not all licensed golf associations use GHIN software). It's easy enough to verify if the "club" is a member of a USGA-licensed golf association (e.g. Metropolitan Golf Association or Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP)). If a tournament committee or golf professional determines that the club is not part of a licensed association, then the "handicap" is likely to be viewed as "ineligible" for play in a tournament. There are also several software products that will calculate a "handicap"; but, again, it's not an official handicap as far as the USGA is concerned because it's not USGA-licensed and part of its comprehensive course rating and handicap index system.

Secondly, while you "know the rules", you did ask: "The biggest questions being: How does the USGA police these clubs, if they do...and how do the clubs (in question) do peer review". I thought I provided answers to these questions (and a link to the definition of "peer review") for clubs affiliated with an "official" USGA-licensed golf association. For these clubs, the use of a handicap committee and peer review and possible sanctions is spelled out, and, as I wrote subject to audit by the USGA. Further, the golf association may also monitor "exceptional (net) tournament scores" and take remedial handicap action (for example, GAP uses the Knuth system when determining whether to adjust handicaps after an "exceptional" net tournament score).

If your question only pertained to clubs which are NOT members of an authorized association, then excuse me. It would seem obvious that the USGA doesn't audit those "ineligible" clubs and its handicaps would be viewed as questionable and ineligible as far as a tournament committee is concerned. Personally, I would ensure that I have a handicap from a club/association that is licensed by the USGA. However, people use "handicaps" "calculated" in different and mysterious ways for all sorts of reasons. Caveat emptor.

I took the time to try to be helpful, but by all means read the USGA handicap guidelines yourself, and if you still have questions, call or send an email to the USGA. I do it all the time for rules and handicap questions (often before I post on Golfwrx).

This post has been edited by Mainlinegolfer: Jun 17 2009, 01:54 PM

[BEND OF THE RIVE...]

Yes - when you sign up to keep an official handicap this is in the info or rules for keeping a cap.

This definitely has an impact. the example in your link puts it perfectly -

"For example, on that one disaster hole you might have taken 14 strokes......Taking the "14" might throw your handicap index out of whack. And remember, the handicap index is not meant to reflect your average score, it's meant to reflect your best potential."

In fact, no one should even want their handicap to trend upward, if so, why bother keeping track of it? The ESC is meant to trend you lower......

[atlanta golfer]

On the previous couple of posts, immediately above the last previous post, I did not quote in order to keep this post short. But I think the reality is that with private club membership on the decline, with more and more golfers playing a variety of daily fee courses, and with the growth of internet usga handicap index reporting and even "clubs" that are virtual or internet based --- the reality is that peer review is going to be very tough under these circumstances. The result for most of us is no different. But for those people (maybe 5% or 10% at most) who are prone to either sandbagging, or creating vanity handicaps - it will be easier to "cheat" in this way. And I'm just not sure of any good way to fix that.

I play in both a golf league as well as a series of amateur tournaments, and in both cases, these organizations have found a way to monitor scores and to quickly move people up and down in flights, based on their actual performance, and not based on handicap indexes, in fact, you don't even need to have a usga handicap index for either of these organizations.

Personally, I use my actual usga handicap index for tournaments that require them, only a couple of times per year. The main reason I keep it is to monitor my own progress. Since I report all my scores, and I do it truthfully, I can see for a fact if I am getting better, and how fast - and that is worth a lot of satisfaction.

[Mainlinegolfer]

On the previous couple of posts, immediately above the last previous post, I did not quote in order to keep this post short. But I think the reality is that with private club membership on the decline, with more and more golfers playing a variety of daily fee courses, and with the growth of internet usga handicap index reporting and even "clubs" that are virtual or internet based --- the reality is that peer review is going to be very tough under these circumstances. The result for most of us is no different. But for those people (maybe 5% or 10% at most) who are prone to either sandbagging, or creating vanity handicaps - it will be easier to "cheat" in this way. And I'm just not sure of any good way to fix that.

I play in both a golf league as well as a series of amateur tournaments, and in both cases, these organizations have found a way to monitor scores and to quickly move people up and down in flights, based on their actual performance, and not based on handicap indexes, in fact, you don't even need to have a usga handicap index for either of these organizations.

Personally, I use my actual usga handicap index for tournaments that require them, only a couple of times per year. The main reason I keep it is to monitor my own progress. Since I report all my scores, and I do it truthfully, I can see for a fact if I am getting better, and how fast - and that is worth a lot of satisfaction.

I don't work for the USGA and don't really have a "dog in this fight". I guess I may be characterized by some as a "handicap Nazi" (though poor choices of words they are... sort of like "club 'ho"). It's just that (1) I hate sandbagging; and (2) most criticism comes from being those uninformed about the depth and breadth of what the rules and handicap system are designed to do...and the information is readily available from the USGA. When it comes to the rules, by this time, there are very few situations that haven't already come up for review and a decision written.

But I feel a little sad if not annoyed when the criticism of USGA rules or the handicap system is made without taking the time to read the rules/decisions and handicap guidelines (and admittedly that can be arcane and sleep-inducing task). Rather like Churchill saying that "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried", I don't see how "these organizations" making expedient handicap adjustments is better than the USGA system, and certainly not as portable. The USGA handicap index is NOT an average score and its primary purpose is NOT to to help us monitor our own progress, it's to enable players of varying abilities to compete in a variety of formats, tees, courses, etc. I'm not sure how can "these organization" find a way to monitor scores that doesn't expose themselves to accusations of sandbagging, but I guess if everyone is satisfied, and the competition is friendly (not for meaningful money or prizes), and informal... If you really can play without a handicap index, there MUST be some decent "honest" golfer who is upset when "Tex, with the sunburned neck, a 1-iron and a 15 handicap" or "Sally, the newbie 36 handicap" wins low net. Frankly, everyone is simply not ias nformed or as honest as you are in keeping and posting scores. The USGA system is undeniably more ambitious, comprehensive and fairer, in my opinion. The big IF, of course, is that it assumes everyone plays by the same rules.

As far as "virtual or Internet-based clubs", there is still a requirement for peer review. Even in non-green grass "clubs", members play golf with each other and get a feel for their games and there is open posting of scores for members to see. There is always a requirement for a Handicap Committee (although it may not do its job). Even aside from a handicap committee (supposedly) making adjustments for a great tournament score (handicap index down) and injuries (handicap index up), the USGA software, as I mentioned before, automatically notes "exceptional tournament scores" and can adjust handicaps automatically when red flags go up.

[atlanta golfer]

On the previous couple of posts, immediately above the last previous post, I did not quote in order to keep this post short. But I think the reality is that with private club membership on the decline, with more and more golfers playing a variety of daily fee courses, and with the growth of internet usga handicap index reporting and even "clubs" that are virtual or internet based --- the reality is that peer review is going to be very tough under these circumstances. The result for most of us is no different. But for those people (maybe 5% or 10% at most) who are prone to either sandbagging, or creating vanity handicaps - it will be easier to "cheat" in this way. And I'm just not sure of any good way to fix that.

I play in both a golf league as well as a series of amateur tournaments, and in both cases, these organizations have found a way to monitor scores and to quickly move people up and down in flights, based on their actual performance, and not based on handicap indexes, in fact, you don't even need to have a usga handicap index for either of these organizations.

Personally, I use my actual usga handicap index for tournaments that require them, only a couple of times per year. The main reason I keep it is to monitor my own progress. Since I report all my scores, and I do it truthfully, I can see for a fact if I am getting better, and how fast - and that is worth a lot of satisfaction.

I don't work for the USGA and don't really have a "dog in this fight". I guess I may be characterized by some as a "handicap Nazi" (though poor choices of words they are... sort of like "club 'ho"). It's just that (1) I hate sandbagging; and (2) most criticism comes from being those uninformed about the depth and breadth of what the rules and handicap system are designed to do...and the information is readily available from the USGA. When it comes to the rules, by this time, there are very few situations that haven't already come up for review and a decision written.

But I feel a little sad if not annoyed when the criticism of USGA rules or the handicap system is made without taking the time to read the rules/decisions and handicap guidelines (and admittedly that can be arcane and sleep-inducing task). Rather like Churchill saying that "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried", I don't see how "these organizations" making expedient handicap adjustments is better than the USGA system, and certainly not as portable. The USGA handicap index is NOT an average score and its primary purpose is NOT to to help us monitor our own progress, it's to enable players of varying abilities to compete in a variety of formats, tees, courses, etc. I'm not sure how can "these organization" find a way to monitor scores that doesn't expose themselves to accusations of sandbagging, but I guess if everyone is satisfied, and the competition is friendly (not for meaningful money or prizes), and informal... If you really can play without a handicap index, there MUST be some decent "honest" golfer who is upset when "Tex, with the sunburned neck, a 1-iron and a 15 handicap" or "Sally, the newbie 36 handicap" wins low net. Frankly, everyone is simply not ias nformed or as honest as you are in keeping and posting scores. The USGA system is undeniably more ambitious, comprehensive and fairer, in my opinion. The big IF, of course, is that it assumes everyone plays by the same rules.

As far as "virtual or Internet-based clubs", there is still a requirement for peer review. Even in non-green grass "clubs", members play golf with each other and get a feel for their games and there is open posting of scores for members to see. There is always a requirement for a Handicap Committee (although it may not do its job). Even aside from a handicap committee (supposedly) making adjustments for a great tournament score (handicap index down) and injuries (handicap index up), the USGA software, as I mentioned before, automatically notes "exceptional tournament scores" and can adjust handicaps automatically when red flags go up.

Hey, I'm with you 110%. I just wish a lot of other people were as well. Perhaps if more of these organizations REQUIRED a handicap index to participate, then things would be better. Or if at least they required you to START a handicap index and maintain it as part of participation, then that would be a plus. But unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The one positive I see is that the league I play in has flights 1 through 4, and the egolf amateur tour has flights Championship, A, B, C, and D. And they both maintain and publicly post scoring averages similar to, but not quite the same, as the usga handicap index. So usually, someone who is misplaced, or who is not truthful when joining, will be found out quickly and moved to the correct flight. The interesting thing is, there are far more people who are playing a better flight than they should, out of ego, then there are people who are playing an easier flight so they can win.