Do you Leave it or Pull it, The Pin Options

[shuttle1]

You are just off of the Green and you are Putting or Chipping.

Do you pull the Pin or leave it in??

I have read forever that you should leave it in. It seems all it does is kick the ball out of the hole. Starting this year I have been pulling the pin and had much better success.

Curious what everyone else thinks or does.

[Jack Mac]

If it i downhill i will always leave it in,but if a straight forward shot i would pull it.

[funkyfedora]

If the wind is blowing it/its leaning toward me I pull it. If I put I have my playing partner attend the flag. And I tell them if I want it pulled when It gets close...

[highergr0und]

Usually pull it for putts and leave it for chips. I think it's more mental than anything else. Is it illegal to verify that it's standing straight up and down and fix it if it's not (ie pull it and replace it before the shot)?

[TheBoomer]

I have always believed to make more room for the ball to go in.

I pull-out.

[A4A4A4]

If you can see the hole, you should pull it, IMO.

[sooner66]

Dave Pelz did a massive study and showed the pin should be left in any time it is legal. The pin will help you far more times than it will hurt you. The only time you should pull it is if it is leaning toward you.

[shuttle1]

If the wind is blowing it/its leaning toward me I pull it. If I put I have my playing partner attend the flag. And I tell them if I want it pulled when It gets close...

If you are not on the Green/putting surface, you cannot pull the pin. If you are off the green the flag cannot be attended. It must be left in our out.

Dave Pelz did a massive study and showed the pin should be left in any time it is legal. The pin will help you far more times than it will hurt you. The only time you should pull it is if it is leaning toward you.

I have read this and is why I always left it in. Every time I hit the pin it kicks the ball out. I pull the pin and the ball seems to go in if it hits the hole.

I am always pulling the pin from here on.

[QWKDTSN]

Leave it in, I have holed out with a putter or chip many times with the pin in, don't think I have ever had the pin kick a ball out. If the ball stays out it was going too fast and was lucky as heck to hit the pin in the first place - should leave you much closer to the hole than if it had hit the hole and lipped out or bounced off the back lip with the pin pulled. Always leave it in when off the green.

[forgedforever]

I was actually thinking about this as a possible topic this afternoon. It's obvious that shuttle1 launched it first

This is interesting debate. When you think about it, all holes-in-one are made with the pin in. Putts, with the exception of some made from the fringe, are made with the pin out.

I have come to this conclusion: if there's a possibility the ball will run "hot" coming out of the grass or if the shot is definitely down hill I will leave the pin in. Otherwise I will pull the pin.

[funkyfedora]

Suttle. Please read rule 17-1...


Edit: For those who don't have there rule books on hand


17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.


This post has been edited by funkyfedora: Jun 1 2009, 12:02 AM

[shuttle1]

IF you are not on the Putting surface you cannot have the pin attended. It must be left in, or out.

[funkyfedora]

I just posted the rules...

[Hairpie]

I tend to think of it as offense and defense.....When I'm really trying to make it I pull it...When its downhill or I'm in a more defensive mode I leave it in.....Even though he's a bit too scientific for my tastes I believe Pelz did a study once and concluded that leaving the pin in repels more shots than it helps go in...

[shuttle1]

The rule is:

If you are on the Putting surface you can Putt with the flag in place. It must be taken out by the person attending the flag or you incur a penalty if you hit the pin from it being left in the hole.
IF you are not on the Putting surface you may have the pin attended as outlined by the rules but if the flag is left in it cannot be pulled AFTER you have made you stroke.

[funkyfedora]

Since you don't have a rule book apparently heres all of rule 17




Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in
the Definitions section — see pages 5-18.
17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player
may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate
the position of the hole.
If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the
player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held
up during the stroke or while the player’s ball is in motion if
doing so might influence the movement of the ball.
Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it
while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the
flagstick.
Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or
held up by anyone with the player’s knowledge and he makes
no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.
Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke
is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until
the ball comes to rest.
(moving attended, removed or held up flagstick while ball in
motion — see Rule 24-1.)
17-2. Unauthorized Attendance
If an opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competi-
tor or his caddie in stroke play, without the player’s author-
ity or prior knowledge, attends, removes or holds up the
Rule 17
flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and
the act might influence the movement of the ball, the oppo-
nent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.
*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 17-1 or 17-2:
match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
*In stroke play, if a breach of Rule 17-2 occurs and the competi-
tor’s ball subsequently strikes the flagstick, the person attending
or holding it or anything carried by him, the competitor incurs
no penalty. The ball is played as it lies, except that if the stroke
was made on the putting green, the stroke is canceled and the
ball must be replaced and replayed.
17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant
The player’s ball must not strike:
a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or any-
thing carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has
been made on the putting green.
Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up
without the player’s authority — see Rule 17-2.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 17-3:
match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes and the
ball must be played as it lies.
17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick
When a player’s ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and
the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorized
by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls
into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his
last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the
lip of the hole, without penalty.

[shuttle1]

Posting the rules doesn't change the rules.

It is as I have said.

If you are not on the Green, your buddy pulls the flag after you hit the ball, before it comes to rest, it is a Penalty.

Please, somebody else jump in here....

[funkyfedora]

In that situation it would be:


17-2. Unauthorized Attendance
If an opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competi-
tor or his caddie in stroke play, without the player’s author-
ity or prior knowledge, attends, removes or holds up the
Rule 17
flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and
the act might influence the movement of the ball, the oppo-
nent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.
*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 17-1 or 17-2:
match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
*In stroke play, if a breach of Rule 17-2 occurs and the competi-
tor’s ball subsequently strikes the flagstick, the person attending
or holding it or anything carried by him, the competitor incurs
no penalty. The ball is played as it lies, except that if the stroke
was made on the putting green, the stroke is canceled and the
ball must be replaced and replayed.





But you may have somebody attend it on any shot...

[huy]

Rule 24-1:

When a ball is in motion, an obstruction that might influence the movement of the ball, other than equipment of any player or the flagstick when attended, removed or held up, must not be moved.

[davewalji]

so according to rule 17-1 the flag stick can be attended on any shot, and then according to rule 24-1 the flag stick can be moved whilst a ball is in motion.
So if you were chipping you can have someone attend the flag and then move it while the ball is in the ball (in motion), so is there specific rule stating the pin can not be attended whilst off the green?

many thanks

[Dazza]

I leave it in.

[HoosierGolfer]

If the ball is off the green, I like it in. If the ball is on, pull it.....unless it is a super long putt, then I like it in to help judge the distance.

[Chunkylover77]

The only time I pull it is if it is leaning towards me. Otherwise I've had more luck with hitting the flag and dropping then with hitting the back of the cup and dropping.

[larrybud]

Pelz has rolled a whole bunch of balls at the pin at various speeds and the odds are better with the pin in, regardless of uphill or downhill. The only time it doesn't benefit you is when the wind it blowing the pin toward you, closing the space in which the ball can fit.

Think of this: If it wasn't a benefit to leave the pin in, there would be no reason to have a rule that says you cannot have the pin in the hole when on the green.

[bermuda]

I always leave it in when off the green because, like larrybud says, I think it's an advantage, unless the pin is leaning toward me. Whichever you prefer, in or out, do it the same every time or you'll be second-guessing. And that could lead to slow play,which could get you in another thread.

[falken19150]

"Do you leave it or pull it?" Ha Ha Ha!!

[minitour]

I was actually thinking about this as a possible topic this afternoon. It's obvious that shuttle1 launched it first

This is interesting debate. When you think about it, all holes-in-one are made with the pin in. Putts, with the exception of some made from the fringe, are made with the pin out.

I have come to this conclusion: if there's a possibility the ball will run "hot" coming out of the grass or if the shot is definitely down hill I will leave the pin in. Otherwise I will pull the pin.

I do the same now.

Posting the rules doesn't change the rules.

It is as I have said.

If you are not on the Green, your buddy pulls the flag after you hit the ball, before it comes to rest, it is a Penalty.

Please, somebody else jump in here....

That only applies if your buddy wasn't attending the flag stick to begin with. Anyone tending the flag can pull it while the ball is in motion. If you're putting from 350' away on the green and don't think anyone needs to attend it (because what are the odds?) and as the ball approaches the hole, your buddy goes over and pulls the flag as your ball plunks in the hole..THAT is the penalty. Because he wasn't attending the stick to begin with.

so is there specific rule stating the pin can not be attended whilst off the green?

many thanks

No. There is not.

"Do you leave it or pull it?" Ha Ha Ha!!

Gig-gi-ty!

-mini

[golfismygame]

Posting the rules doesn't change the rules.

It is as I have said.

If you are not on the Green, your buddy pulls the flag after you hit the ball, before it comes to rest, it is a Penalty.

Please, somebody else jump in here....

Shuttle - do you still believe that the Rules here are wrong, and you are right?
A player can have the flagstick attended for a stroke from any place on the course as said already many times.

But!
If the flag is not attended when a stroke is made, it's a penalty to remove the flag if there's the slightest chance, the ball could have hit it - but that goes for a stroke both on and off the putting green.
It this where the confussion comes in?

[jjj912]

I leave the flag in. In my experience, a ball that hits the flag stick and bounces away was going too fast and would not have gone in the hole anyway. Thus, it it better to have the flagstick act as a backstop. Obviously, once I'm on the green I have the flag pulled or attended, depending on how well I can see the hole.

[SheriffBooth]

I think it was Ray Floyd that said if leaving the flag in wasn't to your advantage, then the rules would let you leave it while you're putting.

I tend to agree with Ray and Pelz, although I might pull it for off the green putts inside of 10 feet.

[Logan Joseph]

I hate leaving the pin in if I'm within or around 15 yards.

[ejmac]

I'll be pulling it from here on out. It cost me 2 strokes today and 6 strokes total in my last 3 rounds.

This post has been edited by ejmac: Jun 1 2009, 03:59 PM

[shuttle1]

Lets try this again....


IF you are OFF of the Green... If you decide to leave the pin in... you hit you shot... the flag cannot be pulled until the ball comes to rest whether it was tended or not. It must be left the way you wanted it until your next stroke (in or out)

IF you are ON the green... you decide to leave the pin in... you hit the shot the pin is then pulled by the person tending the flag.

This is what I was taught and believe to be true. If I'm wrong, please, I'd like to be the first to know that I am.

I understand the Pin can be tended from anywhere, just not pulled AFTER you have hit the shot FROM OFF OF THE GREEN.

[minitour]

Lets try this again....


IF you are OFF of the Green... If you decide to leave the pin in... you hit you shot... the flag cannot be pulled until the ball comes to rest whether it was tended or not. It must be left the way you wanted it until your next stroke (in or out)

IF you are ON the green... you decide to leave the pin in... you hit the shot the pin is then pulled by the person tending the flag.

Nope.

You decided to leave it in (and only God knows why). That's it. You didn't decide to have it tended. That would be......"you decide to have the pin tended".

If you decide to leave it in (no one tending) and the flag is subsequently removed, that's a penalty.

If you have it tended and the flag is removed and the ball hits either the flag or the person tending the flag, that's a penalty.

This is what I was taught and believe to be true. If I'm wrong, please, I'd like to be the first to know that I am.

I understand the Pin can be tended from anywhere, just not pulled AFTER you have hit the shot FROM OFF OF THE GREEN.

If the pin is tended, and the ball strikes the flag or the person tending the flag, it is a penalty. Whether the ball is played from the putting green or elsewhere.

If the pin is NOT tended, the pin cannot be removed until the ball has come to rest.

If you remove the pin and lay it on the green...and the ball is moving towards it, the flag cannot be moved. If the ball strikes it, that's a penalty. If the flag is moved out of the way, that's a penalty.

And of course, if you play from the green and the ball strikes the pin, that's a penalty. Whether it's tended or not.

-mini

This post has been edited by minitour: Jun 1 2009, 04:48 PM

[PingG10]

I think I see the confusion here-you stated above"If you decide to leave the pin in... you hit you shot... the flag cannot be pulled until the ball comes to rest whether it was tended or not. It must be left the way you wanted it until your next stroke (in or out)"-the issue is that once the pin is attended (whether you specifically ask for it or allow it by dint of having a fellow competitor stand near it) it must be removed in order to avoid a penalty for the ball hitting the pin under rule 17-3.

[huy]

If you remove the pin and lay it on the green...and the ball is moving towards it, the flag cannot be moved. If the ball strikes it, that's a penalty. If the flag is moved out of the way, that's a penalty.

You can actually move the flag without penalty.
17-1/6 Attended Flagstick Placed on Ground Subsequently Lifted

Q. While a ball is in motion after a stroke, the person attending the flagstick removes it and places it on the ground. He then realizes the ball might strike the flagstick, so he picks it up. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. A flagstick that is attended, removed, or held up may be moved by anyone even if doing so could influence the movement of a ball in motion (Rule 24-1). (Revised)

[forgedforever]

I'll be pulling it from here on out. It cost me 2 strokes today and 6 strokes total in my last 3 rounds.

Interesting. Can you give us an assessment as to how many of these shots were directly on line and traveling at what you would consider the proper speed to otherwise go in the hole?

[minitour]

If you remove the pin and lay it on the green...and the ball is moving towards it, the flag cannot be moved. If the ball strikes it, that's a penalty. If the flag is moved out of the way, that's a penalty.

You can actually move the flag without penalty.
17-1/6 Attended Flagstick Placed on Ground Subsequently Lifted

Q. While a ball is in motion after a stroke, the person attending the flagstick removes it and places it on the ground. He then realizes the ball might strike the flagstick, so he picks it up. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. A flagstick that is attended, removed, or held up may be moved by anyone even if doing so could influence the movement of a ball in motion (Rule 24-1). (Revised)

Wow, that must have changed somewhat recently. Thanks for pointing that out!

-mini

[czneko]

I have always believed to make more room for the ball to go in.

I pull-out.

+1

[shuttle1]

Okay...

You are saying that if I am off of the Putting surface, lets say I'm 2 feet onto the fringe, NOT on the Putting surface.

I can have someone tend the pin while I get ready to Putt (or chip) the ball and pull the flag after I have stroked the ball while it is in motion. I still say you can't.

I realize that someone can tend the pin when you are anywhere on the golf course.