The New Tour Swing (June 2007), The radical move that some 20 tour players are using... Options

[golfdigest]

The New Tour Swing

Radical New Swing: How these two teachers in only a year went from unknowns to tour gurus



Photos: J.D. Cuban

By Peter Morrice
Golf Digest
June 2007

Last Sept. 24, after rookie Eric Axley won the Valero Texas Open, Andy Plummer allowed himself a little reflection. He called his teaching partner, Mike Bennett, and they talked about what to do when more players came calling. You see, Axley was the third player in six weeks to win his first event, and Plummer and Bennett were teaching all three of them.

Known on tour as the Swing Whisperers for their almost mystical ability to help players win (Dean Wilson at the International and Will MacKenzie at Reno-Tahoe were the other two first-time winners above), Plummer and Bennett now work with 15 to 20 pros, including 2003 Masters champion Mike Weir and eight-time tour winner Brad Faxon. They were unknown when they coached Aaron Baddeley to his first win, in 2006, but when Badds won again in February, Plummer and Bennett were the hottest teachers in golf.

Their secret is a geometry-based swing model that contradicts almost everything being taught in the game today. They each carry a three-ring binder stuffed with images of great players who validate pieces of their swing model and tattered drawings that illustrate their points. In short, their swing has the player tilting dramatically to his left on the backswing, and then springing up through impact. Players who get beyond its radical look marvel at the pure strikes it produces.

Continue this article on GolfDigest.com >

[Guest_moecat_*]

Some pretty interesting discussions in this thread below (located in "Swing Fitness" forum) that are relevant to this article:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86690

[jchumv]

I tried the stack and tilt today and it was awesome. I hit every club in my bag crisper and straighter than I have in a long time. I am an 18 and today I shot an 81 on the same course I shot a 98 on last week. The only difference was I read the Golf Digest article about the stack and tilt. I am sold on this swing and have been doing it for a while but did not realize it. The big difference was the straightening of the right leg. Once I got comfortable doing this I killed the ball. There really is no reverse pivot as far as I am concerned because you finish on your front leg not the back one. I saw some where that there are teachers in NY teaching this swing. If any one has any info on who and where I would appreciate it.

[jboesch]

Tried all 2 plane teachers like Flick, Haney, Harmon, and my local teaching pro and never felt a balance finished resulting in a lot of out of bounds off the tee causing mid to high 90 scores. Recently tried Jim Hardy's 1 plane model with limited sucess; I couldn't keep my spine angle into the finish and kept hitting left.

I felt the stack and tilt proper release within minutes. I love the tall finish, it feels so natural. Shot two 86 with 1 one hour practice session comared to months trying to perfect other models.

My irons are crisp and love the short game wedges. I'm struggling with my driver. I need to perfect this flattening out process with the driver. Can anybody help?

Going super low soon.

[szv71]

I have the same problem, My driver costs me 5 to 7 strokes a round. That is the main reason I am trying the stack & tilt.

In Stack & Tilt the shorter irons were easier to control (PW -7i). If you don't get through the longer clubs you will have a fade or at least I did and I tend to draw. The driver I will have to work with a little to gain some confidence. I did not feel like I was hitting this as long as I normally do. I plan to take this to the course this weekend if it is not raining to see the results.

[nextiger]

I hate to be negative but this is really quite strange to me. I realized those of you that like this swing are higher handicappers......here is why I believe you like this swing. In the conventional golf swing you shift to the right and then back to the left comming into impact. A major swing fault higher handicappers have is getting into their left side with a flat left wrist at impact and hitting down on the ball. This "Stack and Tilt" swing allows you to stay on your left side and essentially "chop" down on the ball.....resulting in much more solid shots versus your cupped left wrist at impact with the conventional golf swing. This swing is in my mind terrible for lower handicap players who have good swing fundamentals and the result would be tough distance control....lots of blocked shots.....or lots of hooked shots. Sorry, but I dont agree with this one bit.

[stig320]

In regards to Stack and Tilt with your driver -- I was hitting my drives real low ... straight... but low until I a)over-emphasized the butt-squeeze stand-up finish and b) tee-ed the ball up higher. Especially with these new high cc heads.

I read the article, went to the driving range the next day for half a bucket before playing a round at my local CC. I totally re-tooled my swing and played a round with it and it worked like magic. I stuck irons that I have NEVER stuck before ... three feet from the pin and just PUUUUURE.

BUT

The next day, I went out and played a round and COMPLETELY blew up! I don't know what the hell happened but I am embarassed to even admit what my score was ... and the thing is, I was still hitting the ball pure .... but just slightly off.

Conclusion : I am going to keep working with this method beacuse it FEELS better and more consistent and I think if I devote even a fraction of the time I have devoted to my original swing (uh like 10 years??) it will pay MAJOR dividends. What other swing can you read an article about and apply immediately with virtually NO practice and have it not only NOT mess up your entire game but actually IMPROVE it???

[tiltmaestro]

every tour player how has used the s&t has hit more fairways the next year with the driver...hows that again about a steep downswing and not working again for good players.perhaps tiger could stand to hit a few more?

This post has been edited by tiltmaestro: Jun 11 2007, 10:37 PM

[RDTigger]

over-emphasized the butt-squeeze

...Sorry that just sounds like a Bill Murray reference from CaddyShack.

I understand where the high handicapper loves this. Learning how to cure a banana slice, block and painful ball flight...( I still play a slight fade for soft landings on the greens) The moment you find some answers and hit shots with some consistency you fall in love with the game again. The pain and agony they suffered to only now have some hope of a formidable and repeatable swing... Let them have some joy...

This post has been edited by RDTigger: Jun 14 2007, 10:00 AM

[Big D McGee]

Anyone having trouble viewing the instructional video on Golfdigest.com?? I have all the latest plug-ins, but the Stack & tilt vids just won't play. Any suggestions??

[Gdmichael]

Anyone having trouble viewing the instructional video on Golfdigest.com?? I have all the latest plug-ins, but the Stack & tilt vids just won't play. Any suggestions??

I just checked them and they seem to be working from here.

What browser are you using?

[Big D McGee]

Firefox. I'll try it with MS Explorer and see how it works.

[AM92318]

I hate to be negative but this is really quite strange to me. I realized those of you that like this swing are higher handicappers......here is why I believe you like this swing. In the conventional golf swing you shift to the right and then back to the left comming into impact. A major swing fault higher handicappers have is getting into their left side with a flat left wrist at impact and hitting down on the ball. This "Stack and Tilt" swing allows you to stay on your left side and essentially "chop" down on the ball.....resulting in much more solid shots versus your cupped left wrist at impact with the conventional golf swing. This swing is in my mind terrible for lower handicap players who have good swing fundamentals and the result would be tough distance control....lots of blocked shots.....or lots of hooked shots. Sorry, but I dont agree with this one bit.

Terrible for lower handicap player??? I didn't know Aaron Baddeley was a high handicap player?

[Jahambo]

Ledbetter worked with Baddly for many years. Baddly clearly wanted something else. Here is what I believe he got for his change.

In my opinion the stack and tilt emphasizes a "big muscle" swing. From my experiements with this method, you simply cannot cast the club from a stacked position with any measurable power. You can't slide into the swing with a false feeing of power and you can't effectively "snap or flip" the club with any decent results. From the stacked position you must engage the big muscles of the back to move the club into the ball. There is no other alternative to do the swing right. This increases consistancy, especially under pressure because it simplifies some things. Of course, being young and flexible is a big plus. The other plus is the proximity to impact position from the start. Set up is at impact and there is too much evidence that this is good place to begin, no matter what the swing type.

Almost every big hitter sets up at impact. Bubba Watson, with his amazing flexability sets up with a straight left arm aligned with the ball, with heavily tilted shoulders and looks a lot like Nichlaus in his younger days as he would address the ball. These set ups with the enormous shoulder tilt tend to promote big muscle "pulls" into the ball. No snapping or flipping with these guys. Their set up means serious things are about to happen. Further, these big muscles tend to negate a lot of negative influence, and it becomes impossible to not follow through. (Anyone that swings and doesn't complete the swing is simply not using big muscles. Partial swings are swings that are limited to arms and shoulders. These can kill a lower back, by the way.) In my humble opinion, the one big thing this stacked swing offers is it elegantly promotes a big muscle swing, which isn't bad at all.

On the downsinde, and I think this swing has a doozie, is it eliminates the biggest muscle group of all, that being the hips and thighs. You can't achieve the added power the legs bring to the party by simply locking your knees the way the stacked and tilt swing encourages. Further, if there is diminished flexability which inevetably comes with age, the hips and thighs can work with the back without a noticable decrease of swing speed or power. This is out the door with the stacked and tilt. Here it's more like smothered and covered. Not good at all.

This finally brings up the importance of weight shift. If you have impeccable timing, then a minimum weight shift is ok. If not, then the longer the club, the more weight needs to be shifted to the trailing foot. This keeps things in sync, especailly with the driver, and even more so when the hips are firing too quickly and drives are flairing right every time. This, now brings up the final doubt I have about the stack and tilt method. Where do you go to fix things when they go wrong with a stack and tilt driver swing? How do you slow down over stacking, over tilting, or over rotating? You can fix those things in a round with your legs, by shifting weight, by getting the timing back into sync, by dancing a little and putting the fluidity back. Are we going to toss Trevino out when he said he kept moving into the ball. He actually danced into address! In a conventional swing you can share the burden with the big guys, your hips and thighs, somehting you lack in the stack and tilt method.

[jriegel31]

Ledbetter worked with Baddly for many years. Baddly clearly wanted something else. Here is what I believe he got for his change.

In my opinion the stack and tilt emphasizes a "big muscle" swing. From my experiements with this method, you simply cannot cast the club from a stacked position with any measurable power. You can't slide into the swing with a false feeing of power and you can't effectively "snap or flip" the club with any decent results. From the stacked position you must engage the big muscles of the back to move the club into the ball. There is no other alternative to do the swing right. This increases consistancy, especially under pressure because it simplifies some things. Of course, being young and flexible is a big plus. The other plus is the proximity to impact position from the start. Set up is at impact and there is too much evidence that this is good place to begin, no matter what the swing type.

Almost every big hitter sets up at impact. Bubba Watson, with his amazing flexability sets up with a straight left arm aligned with the ball, with heavily tilted shoulders and looks a lot like Nichlaus in his younger days as he would address the ball. These set ups with the enormous shoulder tilt tend to promote big muscle "pulls" into the ball. No snapping or flipping with these guys. Their set up means serious things are about to happen. Further, these big muscles tend to negate a lot of negative influence, and it becomes impossible to not follow through. (Anyone that swings and doesn't complete the swing is simply not using big muscles. Partial swings are swings that are limited to arms and shoulders. These can kill a lower back, by the way.) In my humble opinion, the one big thing this stacked swing offers is it elegantly promotes a big muscle swing, which isn't bad at all.

On the downsinde, and I think this swing has a doozie, is it eliminates the biggest muscle group of all, that being the hips and thighs. You can't achieve the added power the legs bring to the party by simply locking your knees the way the stacked and tilt swing encourages. Further, if there is diminished flexability which inevetably comes with age, the hips and thighs can work with the back without a noticable decrease of swing speed or power. This is out the door with the stacked and tilt. Here it's more like smothered and covered. Not good at all.

This finally brings up the importance of weight shift. If you have impeccable timing, then a minimum weight shift is ok. If not, then the longer the club, the more weight needs to be shifted to the trailing foot. This keeps things in sync, especailly with the driver, and even more so when the hips are firing too quickly and drives are flairing right every time. This, now brings up the final doubt I have about the stack and tilt method. Where do you go to fix things when they go wrong with a stack and tilt driver swing? How do you slow down over stacking, over tilting, or over rotating? You can fix those things in a round with your legs, by shifting weight, by getting the timing back into sync, by dancing a little and putting the fluidity back. Are we going to toss Trevino out when he said he kept moving into the ball. He actually danced into address! In a conventional swing you can share the burden with the big guys, your hips and thighs, somehting you lack in the stack and tilt method.

I think you are WAY off. First of all, the more weight shift you have the more timing you need. If my head moves 4 inches off the ball in the back swing, doesn't it have to move 4 inches forward in the downswing. Well what if I don't time it correctly and it only moves 3 inches at impact, or 5 inches then I'm way off. Instead if my head stays still, as in the S & T, then I DON'T have to time anything, I simply have to rotate my hips and shoulders around my head.

You said how do I slow down over stacking, over tilting, - well that can be said even more so for moving off the ball.

And I swing the S & T way and trust me my hips and thighs are moving very quickly through the ball.

[imsocrabby]

i never paid any attention to the stack and tilt. then i saw the various threads here about it. then i realized that i did indeed have the Vijay covered Golf Digest laying around somewhere.


found it. dog ate it.

i pulled what was left and can't wait to give it a try when the rain let's up. [is that happening soon?]

[Jahambo]

In my first paragraph I said you can't slide into the ball with a false sense of power. A 4 inch movement is probably a slide, which is excatly what the stack and tilt method prevents. Weight shift is simply loading the back leg instead of the front. I need to do this to slow down my hip turn with a longer driver. I don't care that much about weight shift with a shorter club. It's about the same, either method.

Since I've tried both methods I can state for certain that at my age the conventional swing is much kinder to me. True enough I can hammer a 5 iron over 200 yards both ways, but the longer clubs are not as easy for me to hit stack and tilt. I don't have the flexability and I need the added power my hips and thighs give me if I want to keep the distance with my driver that I don't want to give up with the stack and tilt. Frankly, I sincerely doubt you could get Hale Irwin or Tom Watson of the Chanpions Tour to switch. Most old guys like me just don't have the body to do it.

Bear in mind though, with a conventional swing you have to "post up". That's what the straightening of the left leg does with the stack and tilt. It gives you a fulcrum to swing from. Sliding kills the fulcurm. As the X factor golf guru, Jim McClain said, a slide is a "Death Move".

As I said before, there are a lot of positivies with the stack and tilt, and it may be dead on for you. That's fine if it delivers what you are looking for and especially good if you gain the feeling of a big muscle swing. It just falls short of the mark for me.

[hattrick3518]

my swing exactly works perfectly for me, its decieving, i never thought it would get the ball in the air, but it works perfect, perfect contact almost everytime, love it

[tiltmaestro]

jeez ......guys moving the hips 4 inches forward IS a slide. it is not a death move it happens in all good players swings. guys when you move you weight on your feet, you are sliding you hip. stop trying to rationialize moving the weight on your feet without sliding the hips, they are directly related....turning the hips does not by definition shift weight....

[tiltmaestro]

this post is ridiculous......first of all you missed one of the main premises of stack and tilt which this the massive catapult created by the hips pushing forward and upward to the finish. this forward sliding and raising of the hips permits them to keep turning. the sliding forward creates the optimal side tilt controlling the anlge of descent . furthermore, the extention in the spine reduces the streess on the lumbar. so lets get this straight, this swing maximizes the power from the torso, as the hips slid forward the full range of motion, they turn the full range of motion and they raise the full raise of motion extending the spine to the maximum degree. in referece to what badeley wanted...he probably wanted to hit the fairway

Ledbetter worked with Baddly for many years. Baddly clearly wanted something else. Here is what I believe he got for his change.

In my opinion the stack and tilt emphasizes a "big muscle" swing. From my experiements with this method, you simply cannot cast the club from a stacked position with any measurable power. You can't slide into the swing with a false feeing of power and you can't effectively "snap or flip" the club with any decent results. From the stacked position you must engage the big muscles of the back to move the club into the ball. There is no other alternative to do the swing right. This increases consistancy, especially under pressure because it simplifies some things. Of course, being young and flexible is a big plus. The other plus is the proximity to impact position from the start. Set up is at impact and there is too much evidence that this is good place to begin, no matter what the swing type.

Almost every big hitter sets up at impact. Bubba Watson, with his amazing flexability sets up with a straight left arm aligned with the ball, with heavily tilted shoulders and looks a lot like Nichlaus in his younger days as he would address the ball. These set ups with the enormous shoulder tilt tend to promote big muscle "pulls" into the ball. No snapping or flipping with these guys. Their set up means serious things are about to happen. Further, these big muscles tend to negate a lot of negative influence, and it becomes impossible to not follow through. (Anyone that swings and doesn't complete the swing is simply not using big muscles. Partial swings are swings that are limited to arms and shoulders. These can kill a lower back, by the way.) In my humble opinion, the one big thing this stacked swing offers is it elegantly promotes a big muscle swing, which isn't bad at all.

On the downsinde, and I think this swing has a doozie, is it eliminates the biggest muscle group of all, that being the hips and thighs. You can't achieve the added power the legs bring to the party by simply locking your knees the way the stacked and tilt swing encourages. Further, if there is diminished flexability which inevetably comes with age, the hips and thighs can work with the back without a noticable decrease of swing speed or power. This is out the door with the stacked and tilt. Here it's more like smothered and covered. Not good at all.

This finally brings up the importance of weight shift. If you have impeccable timing, then a minimum weight shift is ok. If not, then the longer the club, the more weight needs to be shifted to the trailing foot. This keeps things in sync, especailly with the driver, and even more so when the hips are firing too quickly and drives are flairing right every time. This, now brings up the final doubt I have about the stack and tilt method. Where do you go to fix things when they go wrong with a stack and tilt driver swing? How do you slow down over stacking, over tilting, or over rotating? You can fix those things in a round with your legs, by shifting weight, by getting the timing back into sync, by dancing a little and putting the fluidity back. Are we going to toss Trevino out when he said he kept moving into the ball. He actually danced into address! In a conventional swing you can share the burden with the big guys, your hips and thighs, somehting you lack in the stack and tilt method.

[Jahambo]

Shifting the weight without posting up is a slide. No getting around it. And it's a death move. Slide 4 inches or 40, if the left side breaks down, you have a death move on your hands. There is no power.

As far as the stack and tilt, it was not kind to my back. No getting around that either.

I suppose the easiest way to describe the swing I prefer, using my hips and thighs, posting up properly, etc., is trying to "balance" my arms and my back with the power generated from my hips. I prefer to keep my grip neutral so that no arm is dominant and both work equally in pulling the club into the ball. I was surprised to read in Tigers book, "How I Play Golf" that his right hand was his speed hand. Even though he was dominant in his early years, this unbalanced approach lead to a lot of problems with his driver. One hand working out of sync with the other is, in my opinion, a massive problem.

I also just don't see, and please show me how that a stack and tilt can provide the harmony of all the big muscles; the back, the glutes, the thighs and calves all going the same way, applying power and momentum into the golf ball. The stack and tilt seems to me a contrast of "push and pulll", "strain and release", or the synergy of opposites pulling against each other. That's simply not my swing thoughts. I want the build up of power, the fluid release of energy, and the relaxed feeling of my body working together for a common goal. I'm sorry, but I just didn't get that from the stack and tilt.

[darnoldil]

Jambo- Excellent insights but maybe in your use of a TPS you are forgetting that its fundamentals are quite different than an OPS? The TPS promotes hip sliding type movement and hitting into a firm left side which is very different from OPS fundamentals which the S&T utilizes to some degree.

As a result you may have mixed some TPS fundamentals in with your S&T when you were trying it which would be bad. Remember the S&T uses an OPS but with slightly different mechanics to get you into and through your positions. I personally think that the S&T can tolerate mixes of TPS better than an outright OPS can but you will still get mixed results as the S&T is meant to be used with and promote an OPS or what P&B call a "rotary" swing. Just some thoughts.

[Jahambo]

Without a doubt, golf has been on many occasions for me, as Winston Churchill said, a good walk spoiled. That's no longer the case, but it is terribly hard game to learn unless you are gifted such as Justin Rose who turned pro at 16. He obviously has made it, unlike Tryon and apparently Wei. I fall into the "results not typical category". That just makes the hard earned benchmarks that I achieved in my game much sweeter. I never quit, and every birdie I have eked out, even stringing two or three birdies together on occasion, ever par 5 I have reached in two, and my first 300+ drive has been sheer ecstasy. Along this journey of learning, I have acquired some hard earned truths that are chiseled in stone in my mind. One is that no two swings are exact and they just don't have to be the same. If you don't beleive me, go take on Alan Doyle and tell him how awful his hocky stick swing is as he soundly thrashes the daylights out of you. The bottom line is, there are no cookie cutter formulas. What works well for one, might be disaster for another. For the Stack and Tilt guys to proclaim that they have the swing of the future is a bit heady. If anything, this game has taught me humility and tolerance, and a willingness to be open minded. Can you believe that Tiger Woods at one time, and he may still have for all I know, a feature on his web site where the average Joe could offer him advice? The number one player in the world willing to listen to anyone that had something to say is simply amazing. Even today his ah shucks interviews only serves to endear him in the hearts and minds of millions of fans.

Personally, I sincerely hope that the Stack and Tilt method is the Holy Grail of golf. Every year this game shrinks in numbers because it is so hard. I doubt that it is though. I would also venture to say the chances of me, and probably most guys that have dug their game out of the dirt the same way that I have giving up all that we have learned are fairly slim. That being said, I still wish these guys the best of luck and hope they have amazing success. There is plenty of room for innovation. I don't want to discourage their efforts in any way.

[bombaway]

I can see how this swing would work, especially since it was used by some of the best players of the old days. To say that it is just for high-handicappers, well that is just obsurd. I have not tried this yet but I am going to. I am around a 7 handicap and timing is part of my downfall. Tiger, the best player in the world has trouble with timing. Timing can be thrown off by so many things that if you can eliminate it just a little bit it would help the swing. Timing can be changed by what you ate or drank in the morning before you went to play. It can also be influenced by how much excitement you have about going to the course. There's so many things that can easily throw that off.

[bombaway]

Personally, I sincerely hope that the Stack and Tilt method is the Holy Grail of golf.

I went to the range today and tried out this method. If I had one word to say then it would be HORRIBLE. So many more things could go wrong with this swing then with a regular one. There basically asking you to reverse pivot and then to lift at the end to counter-act with that swing fault. One swing fault + two swing faults = DISASTER. With such a steep swing your driver and 3 wood will balloon unless you find a way to flatten your swing out. This is a complicated swing and what's even more complicated is controlling the ball flight (low/high/draw/fade). I am someone who can control the ball well and this method to me was horrible. Sure some of those guys won a few times but how often to we actually see Aaron Baddley on the leader board? Not often is the answer. This swing is very inconsistent and will never take a big roll in golf.

For all of those people who say that this game is hard remember that there are only two parts to the swing: The backswing and the downswing. It's that simple.

If you are serious about the game of golf then I suggest you stay away from this swing.

Look at any low handicappers swing and it's like their not swinging hard at all. It's because their really not because of good fundamentals. If you look at someone with this swing it is not nearly as beautiful as the conventional swing. It is called conventional for a reason, because it works. The swing is not that hard so I don't see why people make it that way. To shift weight you don't slide your hips you just complete your backswing and naturally your weight will move over to the right side. After you there just make sure your grip is light and swing through and down the target line. And there you have it, pure shots everytime. I have watched pros hit many times and this is what they do. It's not a secret but people just have to add a bunch of little things in there that they think will make them swing faster and in the end it's just hurting them.

This post has been edited by bombaway: Jun 30 2007, 09:33 PM

[provx]

what makes the swing less steep is the very inside takeaway, if you tilt back with your weight on the left side and make your normal takeaway then it will be a low left hook. this swing is basically for people who tend to drop the club too much to the inside and the stacked posistion prevents that. its an inside takeaway and then get the heck out of the way on the downswing so give the club room.

[Jahambo]

I heard Sam Snead once say there are some people that just don't need to play golf. He said this in total sincerity as he went on to say, you know what I'm talking about because you've seen 'em. It was Sam's usual blunt way of not mincing words, a lot like Johnny MIller, who also speaks his mind. Who can forget Miller's "puke comments" on national television, and this was about the tournament winners swing.

That brings up this key point. There have always been those that are willing to swing "out of the box". For example, Natural Golf, the Two Plane vs. One Plane theory, Stack and Tilt, are all trying to help those that just can't grasp the Conventional Swing. A new golfer should try them all.

Sadly, every lesson I have ever taken has not been very effective for me, at least not from the instructors I encountered. I have finally reached the conclusion that unless one grasps the 3 key points that are absolutely essential for a conventional swing and can employ them effectively, I believe the stack and tilt method would yield the fastest results for a beginning golfer.

Each of these methods have plus and minus things to offer, but still, each one must have absolute rules that can't broken that make the swing unique. If golf instruction focused more on the absolutes, it would be a lot more effective. In a conventional swing, you can forget about the grip or it's pressure being an absolute. There are too many different grips on all tours, including a totally reversed hand position on the Nationwide Tour. In Hogan's book he spent tons of time and was very wordy about the grip. It should be at the end of the book in my opinion. Learn the laws first then tweak you grip, stance, etc. I believe the laws of the conventional swing are:

1. You must "firm up" your forward leg at impact. It's an unforgiving law in this swing.
2. Your head must be behind the or at least neutral to the ball at impact. You don't have to keep your eye on the ball. Ask Annaka. She raises her head before impact, but her head is behind the ball.
3. You must swing with your shoulders and back. Consistency comes with equal effort from both arms being powered by the deltoids and the lats. The hands and arms are along for the ride.

The third law also has a big influence in curing a slice. Keeping the arms quiet helps promote an on plane swing and tends to stop the over the top arm swing.

All that being said, what are the immutable laws of the Stack and Tilt?

[golfasaurus]

Dear GolfDigest,

I was on stack and tilt. For some reason, switched to the conventional swing. But went back to stack and tilt again because I hit the ball further and more consistently.

My question is will there me more articles on this? For instance, I have some questions.

1. What does one do when encountering uneven lies?
2. How does this apply to the short game (e.g. 50 yard shorts)?

If any other members here have the answer, please feel free to post.

While there have been many arguments on whether this swing is good or bad, my view is that if it works, then it is a good swing.
Who can argue that Furyk or Palmer have a bad swing ?
I hit my 4 iron with the conventional swing with 7 our of 10 shots going wild. With stack and tilt, I hit 7 of 10 good shots.

[DefConOne]

I have been using he stack and tilt for years, but didn't know it had a name. I only use it out of heavy rough, or if I have to clear a very steep bunker. I get a much steeper angle of attack and it works well for me out of those situations. I've tried it out of good lies and lose distance.

[leekgolf]

Ledbetter worked with Baddly for many years. Baddly clearly wanted something else. Here is what I believe he got for his change.

In my opinion the stack and tilt emphasizes a "big muscle" swing. From my experiements with this method, you simply cannot cast the club from a stacked position with any measurable power. You can't slide into the swing with a false feeing of power and you can't effectively "snap or flip" the club with any decent results. From the stacked position you must engage the big muscles of the back to move the club into the ball. There is no other alternative to do the swing right. This increases consistancy, especially under pressure because it simplifies some things. Of course, being young and flexible is a big plus. The other plus is the proximity to impact position from the start. Set up is at impact and there is too much evidence that this is good place to begin, no matter what the swing type.

Almost every big hitter sets up at impact. Bubba Watson, with his amazing flexability sets up with a straight left arm aligned with the ball, with heavily tilted shoulders and looks a lot like Nichlaus in his younger days as he would address the ball. These set ups with the enormous shoulder tilt tend to promote big muscle "pulls" into the ball. No snapping or flipping with these guys. Their set up means serious things are about to happen. Further, these big muscles tend to negate a lot of negative influence, and it becomes impossible to not follow through. (Anyone that swings and doesn't complete the swing is simply not using big muscles. Partial swings are swings that are limited to arms and shoulders. These can kill a lower back, by the way.) In my humble opinion, the one big thing this stacked swing offers is it elegantly promotes a big muscle swing, which isn't bad at all.

On the downsinde, and I think this swing has a doozie, is it eliminates the biggest muscle group of all, that being the hips and thighs. You can't achieve the added power the legs bring to the party by simply locking your knees the way the stacked and tilt swing encourages. Further, if there is diminished flexability which inevetably comes with age, the hips and thighs can work with the back without a noticable decrease of swing speed or power. This is out the door with the stacked and tilt. Here it's more like smothered and covered. Not good at all.

This finally brings up the importance of weight shift. If you have impeccable timing, then a minimum weight shift is ok. If not, then the longer the club, the more weight needs to be shifted to the trailing foot. This keeps things in sync, especailly with the driver, and even more so when the hips are firing too quickly and drives are flairing right every time. This, now brings up the final doubt I have about the stack and tilt method. Where do you go to fix things when they go wrong with a stack and tilt driver swing? How do you slow down over stacking, over tilting, or over rotating? You can fix those things in a round with your legs, by shifting weight, by getting the timing back into sync, by dancing a little and putting the fluidity back. Are we going to toss Trevino out when he said he kept moving into the ball. He actually danced into address! In a conventional swing you can share the burden with the big guys, your hips and thighs, somehting you lack in the stack and tilt method.

I think you are WAY off. First of all, the more weight shift you have the more timing you need. If my head moves 4 inches off the ball in the back swing, doesn't it have to move 4 inches forward in the downswing. Well what if I don't time it correctly and it only moves 3 inches at impact, or 5 inches then I'm way off. Instead if my head stays still, as in the S & T, then I DON'T have to time anything, I simply have to rotate my hips and shoulders around my head.

You said how do I slow down over stacking, over tilting, - well that can be said even more so for moving off the ball.

And I swing the S & T way and trust me my hips and thighs are moving very quickly through the ball.

Doesn't matter what your head does. It's what your spine does. Also, if you look at Badds swing in a tournament, it doesn't look at all like the posed photos in GD.

[DeaconEsq]

The pictures in the GD article seem to be a bit...exaggerated.

Look at the post in the url below (the entire thread is full of some very good analysis) for a frame by frame of the S+T, with analysis. You'll see that your swing centers stay ahead of the ball at all times, so there is no reverse pivot. Also, the hips and thighs are very much used in the swing to generate power.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=623101

Edit: I wanted to make sure to give credit where it was due. The analysis in the URL above was done by Jeff Mann, a fellow golfwrx-er.

This post has been edited by DeaconEsq: Jul 10 2007, 09:14 AM

[GolfingAsia]

The Stack & Tilt is by far the ugliest swing i've seen.

I can't argue the benefits of this method...since it allows a larger margin of error for those who have issues with tension and timing on the way to impact. It's a bit of a chore to exaggerate the follow through with the longer clubs (probably because I"m trying to crush it again), but the wedges work great with the stack and tilt.

But I recently viewed myself and a couple of friends of mine trying out the stack & tilt on video and we looked like a bunch of clowns with a bad case of the reverse pivots.

[primo]

So I am a borderline high single digit handicap player and have been for several years. I've never had a lesson, but I have read just about everything there is on swing theory. I recently went on a business to trip to SC and had the opportunity to play Kiawah Ocean course. I shot 100, first time since as long as I can remember. I was so frustrated that on the flight home, I picked up a golf digest (i don't have a subscription because the more I read, the more confused I got)

Anyway, it happened to be the one with Vijay on the cover and had the Stack and Tilt in it. I figured there was nowhere to go but up, why not give it a try. I did find that you make much cleaner contact with the irons with S&T, but i found my woods were a little harder to get up. It's been about 2 months since I have switched over and here are the results:

First of all, my friends all refer to my swing as the "shake and bake" but even they can't argue with how much it's improved my overall ball striking...

I was a 11.5 official GHIN BK (Before Kiawah) and now I am trending towards 8.8. However I feel there is even a larger discrepency because I don't have nearly as many quads on the card which were counted as doubles in an adjusted score.

As for the comments posted above, I would have to say I diagree with Jahambo. I find the S&T is based on the power you generate from your hips and thighs, but allows you to do so in a more controlled manner. I also found S&T to be much EASIER on my back. I can play 5 days in a row, without backpain, previously impossible for me. This is not a swing you are going to go out to the range and "get it" after hitting 100 balls. It takes quite a bit of time for your body to adjust. Keeping your head over the ball, is simply the result of keeping a consistant spine angle over the ball. I use less twising of my back and actually more of my hips and legs. Anyway, just my 2 cents...

In terms of ball striking, I think I may have gained at least a club with my irons. I did find that I lost a lot of touch inside of 100 yards... I've now got my faiway woods down, but I am still spraying my driver everywhere. The upside is that I can now murder my 3 wood and still find the fairway and be out just as far as most of my friends drivers. So part of the scoring has to do with the increased distance but more importantly consistancy S&T has brought to my FW.

Overall I am a fan of the shake and bake, and I'm glad to see other tour players having success. I find myself rooting for Weir and Badds, but with any swing change it is prone to break down under Sunday pressure, as I too have experienced.

This post has been edited by primo: Jul 13 2007, 01:44 PM

[tiltmaestro]

s and t is the "harmony" of all the elements of the body. your problem is you do not understand how the golfer stands up thru the ball. furthermore, just as the hips "slide" forward does not mean one cannot straighten the left leg. finally, as far as "posting up" please, advise jim furyk and tom lehman that not striaghtening the left leg is a "death move" at the next tournament your you attend

Shifting the weight without posting up is a slide. No getting around it. And it's a death move. Slide 4 inches or 40, if the left side breaks down, you have a death move on your hands. There is no power.

As far as the stack and tilt, it was not kind to my back. No getting around that either.

I suppose the easiest way to describe the swing I prefer, using my hips and thighs, posting up properly, etc., is trying to "balance" my arms and my back with the power generated from my hips. I prefer to keep my grip neutral so that no arm is dominant and both work equally in pulling the club into the ball. I was surprised to read in Tigers book, "How I Play Golf" that his right hand was his speed hand. Even though he was dominant in his early years, this unbalanced approach lead to a lot of problems with his driver. One hand working out of sync with the other is, in my opinion, a massive problem.

I also just don't see, and please show me how that a stack and tilt can provide the harmony of all the big muscles; the back, the glutes, the thighs and calves all going the same way, applying power and momentum into the golf ball. The stack and tilt seems to me a contrast of "push and pulll", "strain and release", or the synergy of opposites pulling against each other. That's simply not my swing thoughts. I want the build up of power, the fluid release of energy, and the relaxed feeling of my body working together for a common goal. I'm sorry, but I just didn't get that from the stack and tilt.

[thewolfe]

I'm a 7.5 and started using "S&T" about a month and a half ago.

I never thought anyone, much less myself could hit irons so solid.

My low score was 72 and that was a couple of years ago until last week when I shot a 69 on Friday and 73 on Saturday.

I'm convinced.

[jboesch]

S&T Update. It Works.

If you a low handicapper. You should be playing not reading some these posts on swing technique. You have a repetitive swing already. Those of us who have struggled for years getting help from low HD's making our swing worse will find S&T as a preffered technique because it's simple. The Golf digest article only describes certain basics of the swing which are heping people play better.


Low hadicapers will do one thing and tell you another. My brother is a golf pro and has used a one plane technique his entire life but would teach 2 plane fundelmentals and swing. I would get frustrated everytime he told me something that even he was not doing. 2 plane pros and low HD's think there swing needs to be modeled by everyone and tha'ts BS. (Thanks to Jim Hardy for changing that mindset)

As for me, breaking 90 with a 2 plane swing was nearly impossible so too was breaking 90 with Jim Hardy's version of the 1 plane swing. Both swing finishes were too dificulut to balance.

I've shot over 90 only once with the S&T technique and have been flirting breaking 80 on multiple ocassions. I'm actually strugling with pre-swing basics. I aim ot the right (rH) all the time on the course and have to practice squaring at pre-swing.

I heard Tiger would say once Golf is hard because of all the moving parts. Anytime you are making changes to pre-swing, swing and finish the smallest of changes will feel wrong because of all the moving parts. S&T fundemntal changes are no exception. Also, old habits are hard to kill. You will have good rounds and bad round with S&T too. Bad rounds are usually old swing technique creeping into your S&T technique or faulty pre swing setu up. You should have more good than bad rounds or the S&T swing technique is not for you.

In the end, it's what will repeat under pressure and on the golf course. Only your mind and body will give you the answer not pros, Low Hd's, books, tapes, DVD and you tube. Learn a swing technique bring it the course with a preshot routine and play for money or in a tournament.

If you can repeat your swing under pressure yo've got it and if you can't try something else. S&T is a good alternative.

One things for sure S&T works for me. It's simple and easy to to repeat and most important you can balance yourself at the finish with ease. I am now trying to break 80 instead of staring at a triple digit score every round.

By the way, I play from 6700 yards on average, am member of a CC and curently playing to a 12.

[Monty23]

So, basically, the S & T is ...

Flare the feet out at address, hands under chin, and a one plane type setup. You rotate the arms in a circle, with no lateral shift behind the ball. Keep the right leg straight and left flexed. On the downswing, stand up through the ball, and slide the hip left.

Is that basically it?

[stanford]

everybody listen to me i am a junior golfer in the i am not that old i am 14. dont ban me for saying that please. i do not know the rule about minors on the website. anyway. the stack and tilt makes me want to do this shoot myself it is the dumbest swing in golf yet it will go out of style in three years. you do not see all the best players in the world doing this. for example tiger, vijay, sergio, choi, and adam scott doing this swing. those are just some of the players not doing the dumb stack and tilt. you say that only 20 pga tour guys are doing this swing. ha ha. over half the pga still does a conventional swing or something close to it. i will never stack and tilt in my life!

[ApexGrind]

everybody listen to me i am a junior golfer in the i am not that old i am 14. dont ban me for saying that please. i do not know the rule about minors on the website. anyway. the stack and tilt makes me want to do this shoot myself it is the dumbest swing in golf yet it will go out of style in three years. you do not see all the best players in the world doing this. for example tiger, vijay, sergio, choi, and adam scott doing this swing. those are just some of the players not doing the dumb stack and tilt. you say that only 20 pga tour guys are doing this swing. ha ha. over half the pga still does a conventional swing or something close to it. i will never stack and tilt in my life!

You haven't made an argument here. Simply calling it dumb doesn't make it so. You need to point out why. The fact that *any* guys on the tour are using it is a pretty strong indication that it might be a viable alternative. You need to point out what is wrong with it to argue against it.

[tiltmaestro]

its ok to disagree stan,,,,,but sergio is a brilliant example of the mechanics of stack and tilt.maybe the closest to the stack and tilt of any player to my eye. the fact is the whole tour is centering the shoulder turn. and lowering the hand path. kj choi improved play is directly coorelated to his lowering of his hand path beginning about this time last year. kenny perry was ready to quit golf when he began restacking after tommy armour pointed it out to him at memorial he has went on a huge roll. huge generaliztions are dangerous. understand cause and effect

This post has been edited by tiltmaestro: Aug 10 2007, 05:02 AM